Save or suck Medusa petrification

[vagabundo]

So is this advocating that everyone needs to try to make the save with no chance to avert their eyes?

Why should they get a save? There are no mentions of people resisting the petrifying gaze of Medusa of legend.

I think we should feel free to rewrite the DND medusa gaze power to something that is more game friendly - it can still be deadly. The HP threshold mechanic in the post above would work for me, up to that point her gaze would cause Slow Petrification: 1/2 movement+disadvantage;Restrained;Paralysed (each round the save is failed).

 

[Fanaelialae]

Disclaimer for conversation for all previous and future responses: I saw the medusa statblock in the bestiary, I did not read the Caves of Chaos yet. I don't know if it is a GOTCHA as presented or not.

Anywho, to specifically respond to this... I'm not even saying the 5e medusa is great, I'm saying that I was happy to see save or sucks/dies brought back. But even as written, there's tons of ways to avoid the "road-bump" you describe.

Have something else in the room besides a medusa. Other monsters who are now picking on your disadvantage? A key or a small moving object players have to find before the medusa can finish a ritual or kill her prisoner?

WHERE IS IT? I dunno, I'm looking at my feet. WELL, LOOK AROUND??? Are you kidding me, there's a freakin medusa in the room...you look around. Will the adventurers risk looking around the room to find the item or save the princess or whatever? Or will their fear saves their lives, but ensure a "failed" mission?

As always, if a solo monster is the only thing in the room...something has most likely gone horribly wrong.

Read page 27 of the Caves and you'll understand what we're talking about here. The above does not fit the scenario at all.

 

[Walking Dad]

Disclaimer for conversation for all previous and future responses: I saw the medusa statblock in the bestiary, I did not read the Caves of Chaos yet. I don't know if it is a GOTCHA as presented or not.

The gotcha moment is present.

Have something else in the room besides a medusa. Other monsters who are now picking on your disadvantage? A key or a small moving object players have to find before the medusa can finish a ritual or kill her prisoner?

WHERE IS IT? I dunno, I'm looking at my feet. WELL, LOOK AROUND??? Are you kidding me, there's a freakin medusa in the room...you look around. Will the adventurers risk looking around the room to find the item or save the princess or whatever? Or will their fear saves their lives, but ensure a "failed" mission?

By the mechanics, nothing of this is penalized by the medusa in the room. The rules only penalize you attacking it or attacked by it, nothing else.
So, nice idea, but not supported by the current rules.

As always, if a solo monster is the only thing in the room...something has most likely gone horribly wrong.

It is the only thing in the room in this adventure. (Unless you count the de-petrification potion.)

 

[IronWolf]

Well, there are multiple options here, but off the top of my head I'd probably use an hp threshold mechanic.

Basically, characters below X hp turn to stone if they see her. Characters at or above X hp are lucky enough to sense something is amiss and only catch a glimpse from the corner of their eye, resulting in being restrained rather than petrified, as their body stiffens.

Interesting. I am not sure I would like having the amount of HP tied into my other skills/abilities to perceive things, but an interesting idea. I would be afraid that this might lead to HP starting to tie into other things. i.e. oh, down to half HP, then you roll at disadvantage to make that jump check or to climb that wall even though your Strength score has not been affected yet.

So in this isolated incident I think I can see where you are going with this. But then I would ask why doesn't lower HP affect other abilities in other scenarios which I think might make things overly complex.

My opinion only though, thanks for offering another mechanical option to consider.

That removes the gotcha factor (unless a PC didn't heal after taking damage, which is itself a choice). But it's very unlikely that half the party will be petrified in the first round, unless they're pressing forward when they should be retreating.

Tying more things into HP might also further encourage the 15 minute adventuring day too, right? If being down a few HP have a further reaching effect on my other abilities I have even less motivation to push on if I can't get back to full HP.

This:
Or the one in Mutants and Masterminds 3e (cumulative saving throws with degrees of failure, migrated by the core use of a re-roll mechanic).

Cumulative saving throws can be interesting, though they can add complexity as you try to remember which round you are in to know what DC you are trying to beat, etc.

I am fine with re-roll mechanics. They work as a bandaid for a lot of situations!

 

[IronWolf]

Why should they get a save? There are no mentions of people resisting the petrifying gaze of Medusa of legend.

I think we should feel free to rewrite the DND medusa gaze power to something that is more game friendly - it can still be deadly. The HP threshold mechanic in the post above would work for me, up to that point her gaze would cause Slow Petrification: 1/2 movement+disadvantage;Restrained;Paralysed (each round the save is failed).

I am confused on the point you are trying to make. You seem to indicate initially that people shouldn't get a save, but then describe an alternative mechanic that requires saves?

Which point are we debating? Whether a save should be required at all or how should the save work?

 

[Imaro]

This is the problem though. DND Medusa race is not the Mythic Medusa. It's loosely based on the mythic one, but it's its' own thing.

Yep, and until 4e the D&D mythology of the medusa race was as a save or stone creature. I mean you do realize that the D&D medusa was defined and it was 4e that is the outlier by changing it to a non-save or die creature, right?

Medusa's sisters looked similar to her but could not turn people to stone.

Not sure why this is important to the discussion.

 

[stevelabny]

By the mechanics, nothing of this is penalized by the medusa in the room. The rules only penalize you attacking it or attacked by it, nothing else.
So, nice idea, but not supported by the current rules.

I disagree, if you're within 30 feet, you can see her eyes. Unless she's averting her eyes, which she obviously wouldn't, you have to avert your eyes to avoid her gaze. And averting your eyes means you are at disadvantage to the medusa and granting advantage to ANYTHING that attacks you.

There is nothing that says you have to try to attack her or she has to try to attack you. All you have to do is look at her.

And I just read her area of the Caves of Chaos... while it might seem to be a surprise gotcha... the fact that she has the vial means its NOT. Unless the entire party fails the surprise save, which is extremely unlikely, it really is just meant to be a cool and scary encounter.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Interesting. I am not sure I would like having the amount of HP tied into my other skills/abilities to perceive things, but an interesting idea. I would be afraid that this might lead to HP starting to tie into other things. i.e. oh, down to half HP, then you roll at disadvantage to make that jump check or to climb that wall even though your Strength score has not been affected yet.

So in this isolated incident I think I can see where you are going with this. But then I would ask why doesn't lower HP affect other abilities in other scenarios which I think might make things overly complex.

My opinion only though, thanks for offering another mechanical option to consider.

The thresholds already exist for spells though. For example, if the cultists cast Hold Person on you, the threshold is relevant (not that any of the PCs can actually exceed it). Sleep is another example of this mechanic in play.

Really, it's not all that different from the old HD limits on certain effects, except that you can wear down stronger creatures to the point where they become susceptible. That's an improvement in my book.

There's no need to penalize jump checks at a certain threshold. The whole idea is that high hp make you less susceptible to harm, not that low hp make you more susceptible (beyond the fact that your hp are low, anyway).

Tying more things into HP might also further encourage the 15 minute adventuring day too, right? If being down a few HP have a further reaching effect on my other abilities I have even less motivation to push on if I can't get back to full HP.

I don't think so. At the point where the party is at half hp and out of healing, it's time to rest anyway. Anything more than a trivial fight is likely to be deadly at that point.

Since the majority of healing is confined to being between encounters (Hit Dice), a hp threshold might certainly create tense moments in a battle when a fighter takes a hit, but I don't see it impacting the 15MWD much, if at all.

 

[vagabundo]

Yep, and until 4e the D&D mythology of the medusa race was as a save or stone creature. I mean you do realize that the D&D medusa was defined and it was 4e that is the outlier by changing it to a non-save or die creature, right?
.

It was still save or die in 4e, you just got two chances to save.

People are arguing that because the mythic creature did something in the legend then that is how it should be in DND. Well DND isn't particularly true to the mythic version anyway, so changing how the attack works in the rules is fair game. If having multiple saves works for the game then we should have that.

 

[Imaro]

The problem with Save or Suck powers is that their very extremism encourages work-arounds. Everyone in a fight against the medusa is going to avert their eyes, because the alternative is too extreme. The result? No one is in any danger of turning to stone.

Aren't people who are surprised in danger of turning to stone?

Even if people are surprised or do peek, the mythological/pop culture expectation that someone turns instantly to stone is lost with the relatively low saving throw DC. And even if people do turn to stone, the Caves of Chaos medusa comes conveniently with a potion of depetrification!

Someone will eventually fail and turn to stone. I mean I'm failing to see how multiple saving throws in 4e, which were (unmodified) 50/50 and often resulted in no body turning to stone are any better in this aspect?? As far as the Caves of Chaos encounter goes... well it's just that, bad encounter design... which is a different can o worms than the actual medusa as a monster.

The end result is that far from being consequential and frightening, petrification is either an inconvenience (disadvantage for a whole combat) or a road-bump. What could be very cool ('Jimmy's turning slowly to stone! We've got to break the medusa's gaze somehow!' or 'She's pulling Anne's head around and if we don't break the grapple their eyes will meet!'') becomes a slog as everyone averts their eyes and misses an awful lot more, or just shrugs their shoulders at the occasional petrified ally and slathers the victims with depetrification potion at the end of the fight.

Again I think theres quite the "OH Crap!!" factor when even one person is surprised and turned to stone in a party... what I've never seen in 4e is that type of frantic fear when facing a monster like this, instead I see players betting the averages... "Ok, well she still has two saves before she turns to stone... everyone focus fire now!!".

My reading of the surprise rules seem to imply that if the Medusa can get out of their view, it can regain surprise since the rules say surprised can be gained if PC's are unaware of a creatures approach. IMO if you add some treacherous terrain (so the PC's can't continuously keep their eyes closed and move safely) then the encounter with a medusa is going to play out as a pretty frightening and epic battle... similar to the scene in Clash of the Titans where the medusa uses knowledge of her lair and hit and run tactics to continuously catch the warriors off guard and petrify them. This could easily end up being a desperate, gritty, and frightening battle unless the PC's either coordinate well, come well prepared or get lucky. IMO, of course.