Save or suck Medusa petrification

[Hussar]

Save or die is commonly used to refer to the phenomenon of "one save failed = bad thing happens". But, I think you knew exactly what I meant so I'm not going to play semantic games... but no, 4e did away with save or die for the most part.

Well, no it didn't. What it did was make the odds fairly predictable - 1 in 8 without any modifications. You still have SoD, it's just that the odds are quite a bit more in favour of the PC's and the PC's gained the opportunity to stop the process by killing the Medusa.

For those who want a "mythical" medusa, why aren't you complaining about the saving throw? I mean, you can have staring contests with this creature and not turn to stone, so long as you make your saving throw. It most certainly is not "Look at the medusa and turn to stone" from myth. It's EXACTLY the same as every other medusa in D&D. The only difference in 4e is the change in odds.

Which in no way actually represents the mythical medusa. We've had this argument over and over and over again (where's [MENTION=957]BryonD[/MENTION] when you need him?) for the past two years. The D&D medusa has NEVER been, "See it and turn to stone". Not in any edition of D&D. Why would it be so now?

With the save DC that low, we're talking about a 50/50 chance of very low level characters being able to see the Medusa and not turn to stone.

 

[vagabundo]

I am confused on the point you are trying to make. You seem to indicate initially that people shouldn't get a save, but then describe an alternative mechanic that requires saves?

Which point are we debating? Whether a save should be required at all or how should the save work?

I'd prefer a graduated approach to the save. I don't think we need to need to go back to save or die to create fear in our encounters.

Save or die is commonly used to refer to the phenomenon of "one save failed = bad thing happens". But, I think you knew exactly what I meant so I'm not going to play semantic games... but no, 4e did away with save or die for the most part.

The 4e Medusa was one of the few creatures in 4e that had a save or die mechanic. The fact that it had two saves really doesn't make any difference, other than give the players a change to react.

4e mostly ditched SOD it was the better for it.

And you're using the counter argument that D&D defined the medusa outside of that mythology... but ignoring the fact that 4e in turn disgarded the established D&D mythology for the medusa and created it's own which is even further from the classic mythology...

I think what's being said (and I could be wrong) is that a few/some/many/most D&D fans liked the previously established mythology for the D&D medusa and didn't want it to further deviate from classical mythology/pop culture as was done in 4e.

Sorry, my games worked fine with the SoD medusa so I'm not sure your "works for the game" comment makes any sense. It's a purely subjective preference, which I can respect that you have... but stating it as a fact doesn't make it true.

I don't agree that 4e disregarded the DND mythology for the Medusa and it is certainly as close to the myth as the rest of DND. The mechanic was redone as it was a different ruleset.

I'm sure some do like save of die effects, but many do not. I personally do not like them as one save or die. I do like if there is a chance for some player intervention, having had a player panic because his character was slowly turning to stone was great fun.

"works for the game" comment is about finding an approach in 5e that helps bridge the gap for different playstyles. Saying that the Medusa in DND needs SOD because that's the way it worked in myth is just silly.

 

[stevelabny]

[sblock=Medusa room]
And why did her jailers let her keep it, instead taking it for themselves in the case the catch their captives eyes? Also the creature is intelligent and tries to flee. What if the petrifies some and then succeeds getting away?
[/sblock]

1>Were you gonna frisk her snakes???

2>Then the chase is on! Or the hunt for an alternate source of Stone to Flesh magic. The researcher might not know where it is, but he knows where to find someone who does!

But what happens if after someone in the party is turned to stone, another monster or a PC randomly decides to smash and shatter the statue???

Um...the PC is dead.

That is supposed to be something that CAN happen.

 

[The Red King]

If looking at a Medusa made you turn to stone immediately, every time, then no one would be alive to tell you what it looked like. You need saving throws to avoid looking, and you need to be able to fight it without looking at it.

But dont tone it down. A Medusa NEEDS to be deadly.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I realize that not everyone is going to share my experiences in this regard or my opinions, and that's fine. We want different things out of the game.

One of the things that I rarely see addressed is that most of the people that don't like save-or-die effects in previous editions don't have the same complaints about it in the PC's hands. A medusa turning someone into stone with a single failed save is wrong, but a first-level PC sorcerer with sleep or color spray is fine and dandy? A wizard with disintegrate is awesome, but a beholder with a disintegrate eye ray is messed up? Nah, that pig won't fly. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I agree that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. But in case you didn't notice, PC SoD spells now use a hp threshold. IMO, the medusa should too.

As for players who only want SoD for themselves, that doesn't match my experience at all. In my groups, we tried SoD spells a few times and found them exceedingly anti-climactic. To the point where we avoided using them from thereon in.

There's nothing quite like looking forward to an epic fight against a hated foe, only to have that taken away by a natural 1 on a Fortitude save in the first round. It's a real letdown. That applies both to PCs and monsters, in my experience.

Granted, I don't mind if SoD is used to clean up trash, so to speak. The current hp limit on sleep limits it's SoD aspect to that use. If half a dozen kobolds are put to sleep in the first round, fine. The party didn't have to waste time cutting through them. However, the same shouldn't apply to a PC or ogre, IMO, unless they've already taken a beating.

 

[Sadras]

[sblock=Medusa room]
And why did her jailers let her keep it, instead taking it for themselves in the case the catch their captives eyes?

Maybe they did not frisk her, she is dangerous afterall - i mean she does have a head full of 'poisonous' snakes so who would want to get that close?

 

[Kinak]

[sblock=Medusa room]
And why did her jailers let her keep it, instead taking it for themselves in the case the catch their captives eyes? Also the creature is intelligent and tries to flee. What if the petrifies some and then succeeds getting away?
[/sblock]

The adventure doesn't have an answer for that. I'd just say she hid it from them, although I certainly wouldn't argue with moving it to the high priest's quarters.

That gives some great roleplaying opportunities too (admittedly, not so much for the petrified players, although in my game I'd cheerfully petrify one then let them play the medusa until they're back). "I want revenge and you want your friend back. Together we can kill him and meet both our goals, etc. etc."

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[IronWolf]

There's nothing quite like looking forward to an epic fight against a hated foe, only to have that taken away by a natural 1 on a Fortitude save in the first round. It's a real letdown. That applies both to PCs and monsters, in my experience.

I like an action point or hero point system for this. Spend one and re-roll. Or add a modifier prior to the roll to further enhance you chance of making the save. By putting this "safety net" to really bad rolls via an action point or hero point system the rest of the rules can be less complex and do away with scaling or trying to remember how many hit points one needs to be below to suffer which effect.

Get the final fight and and roll a 1? Spend your action point and move on. It helps avoid the letdown experience without adding complexity of variable conditions to the spells.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm at two minds.

This is an iconic power for a medusa.

Save or suck/die's well...suck.

 

[Imaro]

Well, no it didn't. What it did was make the odds fairly predictable - 1 in 8 without any modifications. You still have SoD, it's just that the odds are quite a bit more in favour of the PC's and the PC's gained the opportunity to stop the process by killing the Medusa.

Uhm, if there's a chance to "stop it" beyond one save... it isn't SoD is it??