Warrior vs. Wizard - Reality vs. the Hacker

[Stormonu]

Imagine if you will - ignoring all other classes - a fighter and a wizard standing apart from each other on the field of battle. The wizard, described as a reality hacker, facing off against his nemesis, reality incarnate. Where the wizard tells the laws of physics to go in a corner and shut up, the fighter bitch slaps some sense in them and sends them back into the fray - makes them work to his advantage.

With this premise in mind, what quasi-mundane abilities would the fighter need to counter/negate the a variety of the wizard's spells to keep them viable. And while, "disrupt his spell" is certainly one option, I don't want it as the default; assume the wizard's got it off.

Where possible, I'd like to see a "mundane" solution - it might be stretching the truth, but should sound feasible within the mythical bounds of what is humanly possible. Preferably something the fighter can gain with a feat, ability or use of CS dice. I'm not so much looking for actual mechanics as much as story-based solutions that "sound feasible".

A few examples:

Wizard casts Arcane Lock on a door. Fighter uses his innate strength to rip the door oof the hinges, shoulder charge it in or hacks in down with a single mighty blow.

Wizard casts Invisibility. The fighter squints, carefully scans the area and then whirls around, plunging his weapon into the surprised mage.

Wizard casts Wind Wall. Unfazed, the fighter draws back his bowstring, observes the whirl of leaves and sand kicked up in the clashing gusts, and with a single exhale times his arrow shot so that the chaotic breezes guide the arrow to its mark.

Wizard flies up and away. The fighter prepares a plunging shot with his bow or desperately hurls his weapon at the mage. The strike shatters the wizard's concentration, causing him to plunge back to the ground. (if the wizard moves out of weapon range, well, he ought to be out of spell range)

The wizard drops a fiery inferno on the fighter. Suddenly, leaping from the flames the fighter barrels out of the fire, his armor barely darkened, with weapon upraised and a snarl on his lips.

The wizard dominates the fighter, imposing his will on the hapless warrior. With a grunt and the shake of his shoulders, the fighter's will casts off the domination and the backlash drives the wizard to his knees. As the wizard gasps, a trickle of blood seeps from his nose...

The wizard conjures a deadly illusion to distract the fighter. Without blinking, the fighter passes though the mirage, unwavering in his pursuit of the wizard.

The wizard surrounds himself in enchantment, taking the form of a massive beast of evil. With a lightning fast strike, the fighter evades the tranforming mage's clumsy strike and smashes the wizard in his face. Reeling from the blow, the stunned wizard collapses back into his original form.

With a smirk, the wizard conjures a wall of impenterable force before him. His lopsided smile falters as the warrior hacks at the barrier, sending waves of coruscating force in all directions as the barrier thins....

The mage laughs as he teleports away. But as the hole in reality closes as the wizard departs, the fighter grasps at the mage, and forcibly hauls him back...


Other ideas to give the fighter some teeth against the reality hacking of the wizard? Or even against the rigors of adventuring life that can't always be solved by whacking it over the head?

 

[Grimmjow]

a fighter in the DnD world needs to be so much different from how a fighter would be in the real world. Our world (as some amy call "real" life) has no magic or monsters. Just human fighting human. But in the DnD world the humans need to be powerful enough to fight monsters, dragons and wizards. Things we could never hope to do.

The fighters of DDN need to have reflexes that let them dodge a fire ball, or simply stand in it, with out to much of a burn. A wizards ray of frost or ray of enfeeblement doesn't slow a fighter down, it just makes him more determined to cut of the wizards head.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Other ideas to give the fighter some teeth against the reality hacking of the wizard?

Take a few levels of sorcerer?

Seriously, if I'm the wizard and I cast Invisibility and the fighter strikes me unerringly, I call BS. What does "Invisibility" mean if your opponents can effectively see you?

The best one in there is the trickle of blood down the wizard's nose after a failed Dominate, because it highlights the actual issue: "reality hacking" should not be easy or pain free. That has nothing to do with fighter mechanics, however.

 

[Stormonu]

Take a few levels of sorcerer?

Seriously, if I'm the wizard and I cast Invisibility and the fighter strikes me unerringly, I call BS. What does "Invisibility" mean if your opponents can effectively see you?

Well, get ready to call BS because there are ways to do this in 1E/2E and 3E already (not sure about 4E).

 

[Salamandyr]

Stormonu, I think you've got a pretty good list of how the fighter and the mage should play out (assuming they were to fight...I don't really want PVP as a focus for D&DN).

I said a while back, "I want the Wizard to do the impossible occasionally. I want the Fighter (and by extension the Rogue) to do the improbable all the time".

Magic should never be a hard lock on mundane abilities, ie no more wind wall cast by a 5th level mage negating the skills of a 20th level archer.

 

[1Mac]

These all sound neat, but I'm wary about the possible execution. You don't want the fighter's powers to simply be the rock to the wizard's magical scissors. That's no more fun than irresistible magic. So I would make sure that all the cool stuff you mention requires some sort of check first.

Some possible mechanics for the ideas you mention:

Arcane Lock does not make the door impossible to open without magic, just much more difficult. Possibly the fighter can roll combat dice for a bonus to attack magical barriers. Something similar could work for Mage Armor, where the fighter makes a separate attack against the force field.

Invisibility doesn't make you impossible to detect; it just gives you a big bonus to your Stealth score.

Wind Wall simply makes ranged attacks more difficult, not impossible. Maybe the attack has to beat both the wizard's AC and some sort of casting check from the wizard.

The fighter could roll additional combat dice when making an opportunity attack. This allows him to move the distance shown in feat, closing in on a target before making a melee opportunity attack. Or, he could make a ranged attack at the distance shown in squares. This could cover the wizard escaping by Flight or Teleportation.

A fighter wielding a shield gains the benefits of Evasion, allowing possible protection against Fireballs and the like.

Fighters can take an ability that gives them Advantage on saves made to resist Enchantments andIllusions, representing their determined, disciplined nature.

A critical hit against a Transmuted creature reverts it to its original form. A fighter can take an ability that increases his chance of getting a critical hit.

 

[Stormonu]

a fighter in the DnD world needs to be so much different from how a fighter would be in the real world. Our world (as some amy call "real" life) has no magic or monsters. Just human fighting human. But in the DnD world the humans need to be powerful enough to fight monsters, dragons and wizards. Things we could never hope to do.

The fighters of DDN need to have reflexes that let them dodge a fire ball, or simply stand in it, with out to much of a burn. A wizards ray of frost or ray of enfeeblement doesn't slow a fighter down, it just makes him more determined to cut of the wizards head.

I disagree; there are stories of people caught in explosions walking away without a scratch (your fireball). And we have faced plenty of our own monsters in this world (from fighting lions, bears and elephants to infantry taking on tanks and such). The scale might not be quite the same, but we can use these stories to adapt to a magical world.

But the point is - where the wizard uses magic to make things happen, by warping the laws of reality - I'd like to see the fighter using reality to make the incredulous work for him. The fighter may, in the end, draw on magic to do things, but it should like something that someone very lucky or very skilled might be able to do. Not so much wuxia as "that's incredible" (for those falimiar with the 80's show). Some sort of heroics you wouldn't be surprised to hear about on the nightly news.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Well, get ready to call BS because there are ways to do this in 1E/2E and 3E already (not sure about 4E).

There's Blind Fight (which reduces but doesn't eliminate the miss chance) as well as the old look for footprints on a dusty floor trick or various hearing-related rolls. Some of these things can get a little cheesy, but they are not what I read from the OP. 3e even has massive Hide vs Spot modifiers for seeing invisible creatures, though these are typically in epic range and fighters do not get Spot as a class skill. I'm not aware of anything that flatly negates invisibility nonmagically simply because a character squints really well.

That so, even if there was (and I'm sure there is somewhere), if I'm a player and my DM pulls that, I still call BS. Just because it's in a rulebook doesn't make it okay. The meaning of the word "Invisibility" is not particularly ambiguous. Same if someone grabs me while I'm instantaneously teleporting or dispels my fly spell with an arrow. If I'm a DM and a player tries those things, the answer is no. If I'm a player, I don't put up with them. It's not wrong to use your own judgment over the rules.

 

[Stormonu]

Thanks, 1mac. I wanted to avoid specific mechanics, as that's certainly not my forte.

You are right though, I wouldn't want the fighter's solution to be a guaranteed thing any more than I'd want the wizard's abilities to be a guaranteed success every time.

But I do want the fighter to be able to have the chance to perform these counters; not every fighter would have them, and there may be other ways to get around the same spell. As long as the fighter isn't shut down without a chance to counter, I'm happy.

In essence, give him a fighting chance.

 

[Stormonu]

There's Blind Fight (which reduces but doesn't eliminate the miss chance) as well as the old look for footprints on a dusty floor trick or various hearing-related rolls. Some of these things can get a little cheesy, but they are not what I read from the OP. 3e even has massive Hide vs Spot modifiers for seeing invisible creatures, though these are typically in epic range and fighters do not get Spot as a class skill. I'm not aware of anything that flatly negates invisibility nonmagically simply because a character squints really well.

Just an FYI, From the 1E DMG, p60

Finally, we have the consideration of the ability to detect invisible creatures even though they ore not actually seen. This is explainable as the observer's ability to note minor disturbance in the air - a shimmering or haze - or by keen hearing, and/or keen sense of smell. The table below gives the probability of detection of invisibility according to level/hit dice.

DETECTION OF INVISIBILITY TABLE

<table removed, won't format correctly. Basically, the more HD or greater Int of the creature/character, the better the chance to detect. At 10th level, a 10 int character has a 5% chance, while a 15th level 17 int character has 95%

Note: You may give unintelligent creatures with keen hearing or sense of smell the equivalent of intelligence to reflect detection of invisible creatures.

Check each round the creature is exposed to invisibility. Once detected, the invisible creature will be kept track of thereofter, as the detector will be able to note the cause. Any attacks incur the -4 penalty of attacking on invisible opponent, of course, and the invisible creature likewise is entitled to +4 on saving throws.

From the sounds of things though, we have completely different playstyles.