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D&D 5E Too many cooks (a DnDN retrospective)

Balesir

Adventurer
DMs will choose which past ed to vaguely emulate using modules. Players will have to find the right DM for the play experience they want.
I think that is pretty much inevitable with many GMs, anyway. They will disallow specific (variants of) classes or particular game mechanical options of the basis that they are "unrealistic" or "don't "make sense"" or "don't 'fit' into their game world" or whatever. The real distinction, I think, is between GMs that want the power to enforcea particular vision that they have of what "D&D World" looks like as opposed to GMs who are happy to join with their players in exploring the world described by the system and seeing what they find there.
 

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It's a rather ugly way to implement damage progression though isn't it? I mean, just looking at the jumps we see 2d8 turn into 3d10 suddenly at one point, almost doubling your additional damage. Can we not do something simple? Additional damage per level? Additional damage dice (based on weapon) at certain levels? Additional attacks at certain levels?

Yes, I also do not understand that jump. Especially when there are 4 levels of 2d6 where nothing happens.
I guess, with so many different dice it should be possible to have a smoother progression.

d4 -> d6 -> d8 -> 2d4 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 4d4 -> 4d6 -> 4d8 -> 4d10 -> 4d12 For the fighter up to level 10 (or level 20 if this progression is too fast!)
Note, that when you reach a d8, it goes dwon to 2d4 which increases its average while giving you a slightly lower chance for full damage. Maybe you could allow combing 2d4 to 1d10 if you use both at a single throw.

A different progression:
d4 -> d6 -> 2d6 -> 2d8 -> 3d8 -> 3d10 -> 3d12 -> 4d12 (Without the problem of decreasing the chance for maximum damage!)
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on this point. I'm only trying to figure out exactly what the difference is between modules, and different classes all with the same name. I'm certainly for customization of classes, but where is the line where it's still a specific class, and why are modules better than a bunch of different classes with different mechanics but which fill the same role story-wise?

This is the main crux of the entire matter and I think is the easiest for me to answer.

We found out in 4E that class name matters to many people. In many cases, moreso than the mechanics of the class.

It's been said before... 4E was designed such that the mechanics to run an archer PC fell into the 'Ranger' class name. You wanted to be an archer... you were supposed to use the Ranger mechanics. If you didn't want to be a "nature" based archer, the game told you to just strip the Nature stuff out (heck, it even let you select Dungeoneering rather than Nature as the 'free skill' you got), and refluff it to whatever kind of archer you wanted.

And many people HATED that.

They wanted to play a 'Fighter' archer. Not a 'Ranger'. Not even a refluffed 'Ranger'. A 'Fighter'. One who was an archer. And what made it doubly troubling was that a 4E 'Fighter' was actually a tank, and it was exceedingly difficult to make it anything other than a Defender tank. And that pissed people off. WotC assigned specific mechanics to specific classes, and folks went nuts. Because they now could no longer choose for themselves what their Fighter did... it was hardwired into the game.

And that is exactly what it looks like WotC is trying to fix with 5E.

If WotC was to design the game such that if you wanted to play 'variant mechanics module X' you had to play some other class rather than the class you wanted to play (all in the effort of trying to establish some type of 'class identity')... they would be making 4E classes all over again.

And we know exactly how well that went over with a large percentage of the population.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
I think that is pretty much inevitable with many GMs, anyway. They will disallow specific (variants of) classes or particular game mechanical options of the basis that they are "unrealistic" or "don't "make sense"" or "don't 'fit' into their game world" or whatever. The real distinction, I think, is between GMs that want the power to enforcea particular vision that they have of what "D&D World" looks like as opposed to GMs who are happy to join with their players in exploring the world described by the system and seeing what they find there.
This.

A great example of this is 4e Essentials. There are apparently quite a number of 4e DMs who say "No essentials". Which makes no sense; 4e Essentials are just different builds for classes, most of which are for people who don't like the AEDU framework. The objection is never "They're broken", but just "I don't like them".
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
This is the main crux of the entire matter and I think is the easiest for me to answer.

We found out in 4E that class name matters to many people. In many cases, moreso than the mechanics of the class.

It's been said before... 4E was designed such that the mechanics to run an archer PC fell into the 'Ranger' class name. You wanted to be an archer... you were supposed to use the Ranger mechanics. If you didn't want to be a "nature" based archer, the game told you to just strip the Nature stuff out (heck, it even let you select Dungeoneering rather than Nature as the 'free skill' you got), and refluff it to whatever kind of archer you wanted.

And many people HATED that.

They wanted to play a 'Fighter' archer. Not a 'Ranger'. Not even a refluffed 'Ranger'. A 'Fighter'. One who was an archer. And what made it doubly troubling was that a 4E 'Fighter' was actually a tank, and it was exceedingly difficult to make it anything other than a Defender tank. And that pissed people off. WotC assigned specific mechanics to specific classes, and folks went nuts. Because they now could no longer choose for themselves what their Fighter did... it was hardwired into the game.

And that is exactly what it looks like WotC is trying to fix with 5E.

If WotC was to design the game such that if you wanted to play 'variant mechanics module X' you had to play some other class rather than the class you wanted to play (all in the effort of trying to establish some type of 'class identity')... they would be making 4E classes all over again.

And we know exactly how well that went over with a large percentage of the population.
While I fully agree, I think you are missing the forest by the trees here. One thing is saying "I want fighters to be able to be good tanks or archers or skirmishers" or "I want sorcerers to be able to be blasters, buffers, illusionist, tricksters, melee warriors or not having nay spells related to combat at all" and "I want wizards to have either spellpoints, mana, recharge, aEDU, Vancian or spontaneus casting", the first two are humble requests of not being shoehorned into doing only one thing by your class, the other one is a request of not being shoehorned into a single mechanic you don't like. Both are very different things.

For example as a sorcerer fan all I ask is for them to have a single yet flexible and simple spellcasting mechanic that captures the "inner magic" feel of the class, I don't care if it is spellpoints, slots, roll to cast or recharge (ok I'd hate it if it was recharge as it is slightly biased towards combat), as long as it is simple and allows me to convert the two dozens or so of diverse sorcerers I've played over the years. If on the flipside I'm forced to "follow this contribed process to get something resembling the simple caster you want, but there is no warranty you'll get the support to make it flexible as the phb is crowded with options, and gameplay is complex anyway, oh and at the DM whims you may be forced to play something far more complicated". Reluctance to pick a single mechanic for sorcerers will hurt the class as much as the straightjacketing of the class did in 4e.

Or with the rogue, so far all rogues having sneak attack has been something bad for many players, having a way out of it sounds good on papper, but when it becomes "you can trade out sneak attack for yet another way to make damage, oh and sneak attack now is way weaker in order for it to be balanced with everything else under XD, and all the defaults include sneak attack anyway", really if that is the alternative I'd rather have kept mandatory sneak attack for all rogues, a single ability is easier to ignore than a whole subsystem. (And I'mstarting to see the creep wizard-seep sorcerer all over again just with fighters and rogues, you cannot balance a class to cause damage at will with another that only does it situationally by just giving the second one the same package with reduced numbers in the same way you cannot balance having potentially unlimited knowledge over the universe with only knowing a handfull of spells if the later has the exact same estructure than the former just with lower numbers).

Part of the problem I have with the current approach is that it will rennounce having a simple default on all classes in order to answer many questions and requests nobody has made just because many people have speciffic requests on speciffic classes. Just because it is a general demand that wizards and fighters have differing levels of complexity it doens't necessarilly imply every other class has to be shoehorned into that mould too.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If on the flipside I'm forced to "follow this contribed process to get something resembling the simple caster you want, but there is no warranty you'll get the support to make it flexible as the phb is crowded with options, and gameplay is complex anyway, oh and at the DM whims you may be forced to play something far more complicated". Reluctance to pick a single mechanic for sorcerers will hurt the class as much as the straightjacketing of the class did in 4e.

So basically... you're worried WotC are idiots who won't know how to edit their book to make the process simple and straightforward. All righty then.
 

Kinak

First Post
So basically... you're worried WotC are idiots who won't know how to edit their book to make the process simple and straightforward. All righty then.
Man, talk about high standards.

A designer who can't make a complicated process simple and straightforward by just changing the wording isn't an "idiot," they're just not a miracleworker.

The kind of editing that makes a complex system into a simple system is the kind that cuts out steps, options, and mechanics. Which is to say: exactly the sort of editing KailLurker is advocating for.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Man, talk about high standards.

A designer who can't make a complicated process simple and straightforward by just changing the wording isn't an "idiot," they're just not a miracleworker.

The kind of editing that makes a complex system into a simple system is the kind that cuts out steps, options, and mechanics. Which is to say: exactly the sort of editing KailLurker is advocating for.

Cheers!
Kinak

Uh, yeah... I DO think WotC is quite capable of having complex rules and then being able to arrange them into a fairly straightforward and easy-to-understand format, without having pare the game down to its absolute basics just to make sure its understandable. They have professional copyeditors just for that purpose.

So there's no need to complain about the game's complexity right now UNLESS you truly think WotC's editors are bad at their jobs. Which I don't. I have faith in their abilities.
 

Kinak

First Post
Uh, yeah... I DO think WotC is quite capable of having complex rules and then being able to arrange them into a fairly straightforward and easy-to-understand format, without having pare the game down to its absolute basics just to make sure its understandable. They have professional copyeditors just for that purpose.

So there's no need to complain about the game's complexity right now UNLESS you truly think WotC's editors are bad at their jobs. Which I don't. I have faith in their abilities.
I'm not sure I quite follow.

For example, I feel that Vancian casting as explained in OD&D, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition, 3rd Edition, and the Next Playtest is annoyingly complicated. Some people like it and they're welcome to it, but I don't like it.

Now, you're suggesting that it's not just my personal taste, but the fault of four editions of copy editors? That if they just hired one decent set of copy editors over those decades, Vancian casting would be simple enough that I'd like it?

Maybe that's true and maybe if it had ever been explained to me well over the last twenty years, including playing many wizards and using dozens as NPCs, it'd seem simpler. But I find that very unlikely.

And stuff like temporary conditions in 4e are copy-edited fine. The text is very tight. The explanation being good doesn't make tracking them any easier at the table.

I suggest that a poor explanation can make something more complex, but that there is a certain inherent complexity that you can't get rid of by throwing better editors at the problem.

Just because someone is saying that they don't want a complicated game doesn't mean that they're attacking the editing team at WotC. Literally the only person here who's made that connection is you... and I'm honestly not sure why you did.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

Remathilis

Legend
You forget that you don't have to pick same casting mechanics for every class. You can still have wizards, sorcs and warlocks with completely different casting mechanics like in older editions if you so want.
Thus your argument here is completely unfair and invalid.

This depends on how the caster/mechanics division is handled.

IF the PHB says (probably more eloquently): wizards use vancian, sorcerers spell points, warlocks AED and clerics/druids spontaneous; but check with your DM becauce he may use an alternate system (see page XXX in DMG about alternate spellcasting systems) I'd be all for that. Every class is unique and the ability to swap them out is a DM option somewhere in the DMG.

I don't want: Pick your class (wizard, sorcerer, warlock), pick your casting method (Vancian, points, spontaneous or AED, check with your DM which system he allows). I'd like to see internal consistency be assumed, and DMs have to house rule it out if they choose to micromanage that much.

Choosing the default caster method should be on par with rewriting deities to fit your world, not step 7 in the PC creation process.
 

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