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D&D 5E Fixing the Fighter

Unfortunately, it creates a disjunction between effect and source.

Wizard: I create an illusion of a monster, and all the foes charge it and get ripped to shreds.
DM: How'd you do that?
Wizard: Magic.
Fighter: Well, I should a boasting challenge, and they all rush me and I whack them.
DM: How'd you do that?
Fighter: Because I want to.

Who would actually distill the causal logic and frame the post-hoc narrative to nonsense like "because I want to"? Who would do that? And why would they willfully destroy their game? No one would. I don't even know why that would come to mind for you. Its never manifested like that in any game I've run or any testimony I've born witness to. I've outlined multiple lines of causal logic and post-hoc narrative to map to it. I've seen others applied that are just as, if not more, functional. Why do we have "Because I want to" which, as far as I can tell, serves no purpose but to mock and make caricature of something we don't like...when we can have:

2) Str for attack; representing either

- primal roar of defiance/challenge

or

- martial athletic training/warrior acumen/muscle memory/coordination at reproducing the movements of a feigned retreat or repositioning.

3) Will for the defense being attacked; the enemy's physical body is not being imposed upon (Fort), its armor/defensive postures/coordination is not being circumvented (AC), its not an attempt to touch the physical body (Ref). It is testing mental resolve to resist either:

- the compulsion to engage a challenger at the beckon of your ego

or

- testing mental acuity/insight in detecting slight imperfections within the coordination of the athletic movements that may betray the feigned retreat/repositioning.

4) Enemies are slid ("repositioned" in Pathfinder...any jargon used to express the flow of movement, forced and unforced, in combat) to be adjacent (or as close to it) to the warrior after losing the Str vs Will test as they are drawn in.
 

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Obryn

Hero
14 pages ago, when I saw the OP on this thread, I KNEW it was going to end up a CAGI fight with 4e players going gaga over the idea they they get to control the monsters too while non-4e players would end up arguing how its illogical, non-immersible, and unfair.

I had hoped I would be wrong.
I was actually trying to avoid CaGI as an example. I don't think Next needs something exactly like it. I understand it's incredibly controversial, so I'm good with meeting halfway on this sort of thing - giving the Fighter more special effects, and leaving out the overtly cinematic stuff like this.

Nope! If its good for the goose, its good for the gander. You wouldn't do this for magic, would you (PCs are immune to charm spells, or vorpral weapons, or petrification spells, but NPCs/Monsters are fair game)?
I can only disagree. I don't see a need for the game to be symmetric like this. I don't need the same degree of control over the opposition that my players have over their characters.

CAGI is bad game design and I hope never to see anything resembling it in Next. A CAGI fighter maneuver is a surefire deal breaker for me. And with that, I'm done.
I again, unsurprisingly, disagree. I think it's pretty brilliant and one of my favorite things in 4e. Understanding how it works helped me get a better grip on the game as a whole.

However, I readily and willingly concede that it's not something we absolutely need in Next - a game that's intended to be a common middle ground. The CaGI Wars have left thousands dead and millions injured, and the world needs no more.

-O
 

Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
The wizard has an excuse (magic) built into the character to do extraordinary things. The fighter (being mundane by D&D terms) does not have such an excuse. Therefore, we must accept one of the following:

1.) The fighter cannot do extraordinary things.
2.) The fighter possesses some "magical" force as well (psionics, ki, mettle, mythic blood, etc), allowing him the same access to the extraordinary as a wizard.
3.) The fighter can do extraordinary things, but does so by narrative control (luck, fiat, will of the Gods) that cannot be explained in the context of the world, only in the context of the story. (IE: that group of mooks was just stupid enough to try to bum rush the fighter).

Unfortunately, I doubt the three answers will find compatibility in Next, even with modules.

As a rule, I think the fighter should be number one, with number two as an archetype or prestige class.

Number three, on the other hand, could be done using a metagame module. I wouldn't add additional any powers to the classes, but I would give players actual fiat powers over the narrative using a resource system.
 

14 pages ago, when I saw the OP on this thread, I KNEW it was going to end up a CAGI fight with 4e players going gaga over the idea they they get to control the monsters too while non-4e players would end up arguing how its illogical, non-immersible, and unfair.

I had hoped I would be wrong.

I was actually trying to avoid CaGI as an example. I don't think Next needs something exactly like it. I understand it's incredibly controversial, so I'm good with meeting halfway on this sort of thing - giving the Fighter more special effects, and leaving out the overtly cinematic stuff like this.

I have to take full responsibility for this. It was my fault entirely. I knew I shouldn't have used it as one of my two exampled and I did anyway. Labeling it controversial was just an excuse for me to be lazy. There are dozens of other examples I could have, and should have used. CaGI is as sure-fire a thread destroyer, derailer as one can be so for that I apologize.

Perhaps focus on my second Exploit in that post and compare it to 5e's Defender analog (the one were you can spend an immediate action to force disadvantage on an attack roll).

I think I'm going to exit stage left from the conversation. Too many words invested on both sides and little to no chance of any of us getting anything out of it, I think.
 

Warbringer

Explorer
I think it's a shame that very articulate posters are disengaging, as there is a very important discussion for next to resolve.... Should xd have he ability to create the more " magical" (to refer to effects in the reach of magic 1-3, bo9s exc) ... Because this mechanic (or class features ala monk) will likely Bethesda tool.

The debate as highlighted by CaGI, though present in so many other powers from stun, to heal, to blind, to immobilize, to mark, to cause fear or frightened . Are the essence of the debate.

I haven't played 4e since 2008 (many things i didnt like), but have most books, and must admit I love that the player takes ownership I the story narrative ... To this extent my home brew system, which allows style (combat) and spell (magic) power building ... Build your own powers bottom up.... Allows access to blind, and stun, and shadow step, and knockback and knockdown .... Hell, even to blur and healing word....

But all players need a narrative reason why this is the case .... A little bit of mother may I, but for story and world protection.... We usually work out a narrative together ...

It's a critical walkway issue for. Oth 4e and per 4e and next needs a solve
 

Obryn

Hero
Okay, now that I think I understand you, I have to say I disagree with this assertion... I still don't understand how the use of skills and other extraordinary abilities don't enable "fiat". That's the part I am having a hard time with. Knock and Open Locks both have the same effect on a lock? Invisibility and Stealth... Diplomacy and Charm person... and so on. These are part of their internal locus of control and allow player fiat, at least as I understand your definition of it.

So are skills part of the metagame? What about abilities like Evasion or Rage?

If metagame = skills and extraordinary abilities, and even some feats I agree... if not then I don't.

I think it's the means, not the end, that is in question here.
Being the OP in question, yes, things like "swinging a sword" and "using a skill or feat" can absolutely qualify. Can. The main point of divergence is how much of the action and result are completely under the player's control through a kind of direct interaction with the rules and the situation, rather than through an indirect interaction with the DM mediating. So to use a really simple example, two Fighters want to blind their enemies.

Fiat
Player: "I spend my expertise dice to use my Blinding Strike. After bashing him with my shield, I'm going to gouge his eyes." I roll a 19 to-hit; how's that?
DM: That beats his Fortitude (or AC or whatever). He's blinded.

No Fiat
Player: "I want to blind him. Can I bash him with my shield and gouge his eyes?"
DM: "Um... make a roll at -4, and if you hit you deal no damage but he'll be blinded for a round."
Player: "OK. I'll give it a shot."

or, just as valid

Player: "I want to blind him. Can I bash him with my shield and gouge his eyes?"
DM: "Hmmm, he's a canny combatant and wearing a full helm. I don't think that'd work on him. Nope."
Player: "OK, I will try something else..."

If you want to switch it to a spellcasting example...

Fiat
Player: "I cast Color Spray. These guys in the area need to make a saving throw, DC 15."

vs.

No Fiat
Player: "I want to make a big cone of dazzly light to stun or dazzle these guys. What sort of roll do I make?"

So more or less, the big differences are (1) that the player is in almost complete control (barring dice rolls) of what the outcome will be, and that he knows his capabilities ahead of time; and (2) the default result is that what the player has declared will happen (again, barring dice rolls). I don't think everything needs to be done by player fiat, mind you; my main concern is that non-casters should get a good foothold on the fiat side of things with a good range of effects.

-O
 

Obryn

Hero
I have to take full responsibility for this. It was my fault entirely. I knew I shouldn't have used it as one of my two exampled and I did anyway. Labeling it controversial was just an excuse for me to be lazy. There are dozens of other examples I could have, and should have used. CaGI is as sure-fire a thread destroyer, derailer as one can be so for that I apologize.

Perhaps focus on my second Exploit in that post and compare it to 5e's Defender analog (the one were you can spend an immediate action to force disadvantage on an attack roll).

I think I'm going to exit stage left from the conversation. Too many words invested on both sides and little to no chance of any of us getting anything out of it, I think.
No worries on my end - it's true, it was bound to come up eventually. :) (And really - it is a crystal clear example of player fiat, particularly the pre-errata version.) I just want to be clear - while I, personally, think CaGI is pretty great, I understand our focus here should be to talk about Next, and not take another go around the edition wars. I know that CaGI (and its lesser-known cousins like the Rogue's Compel the Craven) are on the far end of 4e's more cinematic powers, and if they must go for a compromise, then go they must.

-O
 

Remathilis

Legend
Being the OP in question, yes, things like "swinging a sword" and "using a skill or feat" can absolutely qualify. Can. The main point of divergence is how much of the action and result are completely under the player's control through a kind of direct interaction with the rules and the situation, rather than through an indirect interaction with the DM mediating. So to use a really simple example, two Fighters want to blind their enemies.

Fiat
Player: "I spend my expertise dice to use my Blinding Strike. After bashing him with my shield, I'm going to gouge his eyes." I roll a 19 to-hit; how's that?
DM: That beats his Fortitude (or AC or whatever). He's blinded.

No Fiat
Player: "I want to blind him. Can I bash him with my shield and gouge his eyes?"
DM: "Um... make a roll at -4, and if you hit you deal no damage but he'll be blinded for a round."
Player: "OK. I'll give it a shot."

or, just as valid

Player: "I want to blind him. Can I bash him with my shield and gouge his eyes?"
DM: "Hmmm, he's a canny combatant and wearing a full helm. I don't think that'd work on him. Nope."
Player: "OK, I will try something else..."

Where do you put this one?
Player: "I want to blind him. I use a dirty trick to gouge his eyes. I rolled a 19 on my combat maneuver.
DM: That hits! He's blinded for one round.

But mostly, I fear this...
Player: "I spend my expertise dice to use my Blinding Strike. After bashing him with my shield, I'm going to gouge his eyes." I roll a 19 to-hit; how's that?
DM: "Hmmm, he's a canny combatant and wearing a full helm. I don't think that'd work on him. Nope."
Player: "I used my expertise dice! He's Blinded! Come up with some explanation to explain how I blinded him!"
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Fiat
Player: "I cast Color Spray. These guys in the area need to make a saving throw, DC 15."

vs.

No Fiat
Player: "I want to make a big cone of dazzly light to stun or dazzle these guys. What sort of roll do I make?"
It's an interesting example you've posited. My sense of things is that the further back you go through the editions, the more spells look like the second option. I don't think they were codified as they have been with the intent of granting wizard players additional control over the game, however. I think spell effects were rendered increasingly specific and objective and arbitrary in order to balance character abilities, speed up the game, and remove some of the DM's influence. I look at your "player fiat" as an unintended (if natural) consequence of this path of development.

Thing is, I think the magic system personified by the first option is bad game design. If anything, I think the second should be the goal.

I mean, if you really want to blind someone with magic, there should be any number of ways to do it, right? If you shoot a Melf's Acid Arrrow right in someone's eye, or a Sunburst that goes right by their face, that's going to diminish their visual acuity. But more and more, we've accepted that blinding can only happen when the spell text specifically says it can. Glitterdust blinds you, because it says it does. Lightning bolt doesn't. Lightning bolts don't bounce off of walls any more either. This is a bad thing. (In my opinion). We buy into this unnatural specificity because "it's magic". In many cases, really "it's magic" is a blanket excuse for bad game design.

The thing is, a fighter doesn't even have that excuse. If you tell me that I can only shoot flames twice a day before I run out of magic, or I can cast dominate person, but it only works on humanoids, or that I can blind someone with Glitterdust but not with another spell that creates bright light or could physically damage someone's eyes, I guess I'll buy into that because it's magic. If, however, you tell me I can only swing my sword a certain way twice a day before I run out of sword swings, or that I can only get an extra attack from Cleave only when a enemy is felled (which really has nothing to do with how quickly I attack), or most pointedly, that I can only blind someone if I've told the DM I'm using Blinding Strike (which I may even have to have selected in advance as a character option), that's not going to fly. Why, I ask as a player, is it impossible for someone to poke someone in the eye without the player specifically intending that effect? Why is it so easy to achieve when I select a certain ability? That's not how combat works at all; it's far more improvisational, and its outcomes are far more open-ended.

Frankly, I think our standards for quality in how nonmagical abilities are written are higher than for magical ones in a variety of ways. The nonmagical abilities have to be written more clearly and comprehensively, balanced better, and hew more closely to some sense of reality (even if it's the reality of a fantasy world). 3e's skill system, for example, is much better than its magic system, in every meaningful way. It's simpler in execution, but deeper and broader in scope. It's more open-ended, but more balanced and fair. It's more realistic, but also more dramatic.

That's why, as I've said earlier, I think on a broad conceptual level, it's much more natural to try and make the magical abilities more like everything else than to try to add quasi-magical abilities to the fighter. Or, to your point, it makes more sense to take away "player fiat" from a class that has an excess of it, rather than add fiat to a class that shouldn't have any more of it than it already does.
 


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