D&D 5E Wealth and Starting Magic Items for 5th Level Playtest Characters?

[Kobold Stew]

This question points to one of the biggest disjunctions between DDN and previous editions: it's a choice they are clearly toying with, and if they implement it in the end, it will change some of the most fundamental experiences of players (and character balance) that many of us are used to.

I think that's a good thing, but I won't be surprised when homebrews start sneaking in more traditional magic items.

(I also really like the attunment rules, and especially the option to limit by Charisma bonus: I think making that RAW would do more to avoid Charisma as an automatic dump stat than any thing else they could do.)

 

[bogmad]

It polls well because people hated having magic items be just something characters were just assumed to have instead of earned.
I'd rather have a note saying, "magic items will make things easier for players" (which is kind of no-brainer common sense) instead of "not having magic items will make things more difficult because pcs will be below baseline effectiveness."

Maybe there is more guidance that should be included, but I'd rather non-specific advice saying "you may have to adjust fights to make them harder if magic items are overpowering your players" than "PCs can pick from this list of magic items at level 5"

 

[Kraydak]

It polls well because people hated having magic items be just something characters were just assumed to have instead of earned.

Maybe. That doesn't excuse bad game design to try and mollify self-contradictory DM requests.

I'd rather have a note saying, "magic items will make things easier for players" (which is kind of no-brainer common sense) instead of "not having magic items will make things more difficult because pcs will be below baseline effectiveness."

Maybe there is more guidance that should be included, but I'd rather non-specific advice saying "you may have to adjust fights to make them harder if magic items are overpowering your players" than "PCs can pick from this list of magic items at level 5"

If you have an XP/monster designation that communicates with an XP/encounter difficulty system, then you need a Magic Item/Power system. All these systems need a lot of flexibility to cover the "All Bards, All the Time!" type parties, but you still need them. Throwing up your hands and saying "DMs can handle it" just leads to frustrated DMs (especially new DMs). Next is currently running with a knowingly mendacious cope out. I'm not greatly concerned: nailing down a Wealth/Level system is easy math, and is crucial for training new DMs. It will be added eventually, to much wailing and gnashing of teeth by people who haven't realized that their constellation of magic item rule desires are mutually contradictory.

 

[the Jester]

If you have an XP/monster designation that communicates with an XP/encounter difficulty system, then you need a Magic Item/Power system.

Nice assertion, but I disagree. Do you have any evidence to back up your position, or are you just arguing from opinion?

IMHO you just need a system that assumes no magic items, and to acknowledge that magic items make the game easier for the pcs. A bit of guidance for dms wouldn't be amiss, of course.

 

[jamesmanhattan]

If you roll 43 times on the Magic Items table, to see what you'd get for a 5th level party. (Assuming the party only encountered "Average" encounters.)

Uncommon items

uncommon	such as (100-500gp) weapon+1, wand of magic missile
1%	1.5	2%
3%	1.5	5%
6%	1.5	9%
20%	0.5	10%
		25%	43 encounters	10.75	items for total party
				2.15	per player

Rare Item

rare	such as (displacer beast hide+1, scale mail+1,splint+1, dagger of venom)
	(500-2000gp)
1%	1.5	2%
3%	0	0%
6%	0.5	3%
		5%	43	1.935	items for total party
				0.387	per player

Very Rare Items

very rare	such as plate+1, mithril+1, dragon scale+1, dwarven thrower)
	(2000-5000gp)
1%	1	1%
3%	0.5	2%
		3%	1.075	items for total party
			0.215	per player

Summation: If an entire 5-person 5th level party is only likely to have found 1 Very Rare item in its career, how do you determine what it is and who gets it?

Note: I didn't realize how simple Plate+1 is considered a "Very Rare" item.

I did the same for level 14, because I might run the Mud Sorcerer's Tomb.
I came up with for a 5-person party:
3 Very Rare items
6 Rare items
35 Uncommon items

 

[Kraydak]

Nice assertion, but I disagree. Do you have any evidence to back up your position, or are you just arguing from opinion?

IMHO you just need a system that assumes no magic items, and to acknowledge that magic items make the game easier for the pcs. A bit of guidance for dms wouldn't be amiss, of course.

a) "A bit of guidance for dms" means a Magic Item/Power measurement system.

b) The only honest default assumption is that PCs have magic items. The default mode of play is "Go into the dungeon, kill the dragon, take its stuff". All editions (except possibly 4th) can be stretched to cover broader play modes (DnD Modern, for example, or SW Saga), but the core game involves loot as a reward. For loot to be a reward, it has to be useful. That means magic items. If the designers are operating on an "assume no magic items" baseline, they are in cloud-cuckoo land. Which they aren't. Hopefully.

 

[bogmad]

For loot to be a reward, it has to be useful. That means magic items. If the designers are operating on an "assume no magic items" baseline, they are in cloud-cuckoo land. Which they aren't. Hopefully.

Does that mean non-magic items are "useless"? There are degrees of what is useful and the whole idea of magic items is that they're "extra" useful. Which usually means, above-baseline, right?

I think you're mistaking your own preferences for those of everyone else.

 

[Li Shenron]

If you have an XP/monster designation that communicates with an XP/encounter difficulty system, then you need a Magic Item/Power system.

I am not convinced at all. You can totally disjoint the XP system and the Magic Item system, so that the amount of magic items can be totally decided by the gaming group.

It's not even that difficult: first you just design your XP/encounter system assuming ZERO magic items are ever used; second you design a measurement system for magic items (gp are a good unit of measurement because they naturally tie-in with treasure for those gaming groups who want to be able to buy/sell magic items, the other groups who don't like magic items market like me, can still use them as a measurement unit without implying they can be found on sale) and when a gaming group uses a certain amount of magic items then the DM gives the monsters additional abilities or bonuses of equivalent value.

Throwing up your hands and saying "DMs can handle it" just leads to frustrated DMs (especially new DMs).

Well, new DMs should really start running the game at level 1. Which means no magic items.

Then I guess that some DMs will be frustrated by being on their own, but most DMs are frustrated by being told how to do it when the system itself isn't good enough.

I'm not greatly concerned: nailing down a Wealth/Level system is easy math, and is crucial for training new DMs.

"No magic items" is a beautifully perfect nailed down system with the easiest math ever

Any assumption is going to attract more criticism than favor, at least on the long term. Maybe on the short term assuming a certain level of magic items (presumably a compromise) can meet the favor of the majority and alienate only those who like a grim'n'gritty game or a monty haul game, i.e. the extremes. But on the long term even a compromised middle ground is going to frustrate people, because it's still an assumption on how they should play the game, and if the system isn't flexible enough, it locks all their campaigns to the same level of magic items... this is exactly what happened in 3e, at the beginning there wasn't much hate of 3e magic items. It all started when people began to notice that they were stuck with always the same level, or the game started to be hard to play and run.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

a) "A bit of guidance for dms" means a Magic Item/Power measurement system.

Maybe, but it still needs to be worded, that the standard is no magic items!

Such a sytem could be: for every very rare magic item, add 1 extra monster. Or you could have different encounter tables appropriate for low magic/high magic-
As long as the math assumes no magic items, everything is fine!

 

[jadrax]

I started my level 14 playtest group for the Mud Lords tomb with each player being able to choose a random +1 weapon, a random +1 suit of armor or a magic item of *My* choice. (two took this option, i gave out a Pearl of Power and an Ion stone that means you don't have to eat or drink).

This does not seem to have held them back.