D&D 4E Pemertonian Scene Framing and 4e DMing Restarted

[D'karr]

From her backstory Queen Ileosa seems to have so much potential as a great tragic villain, up there with Darth Vader or Strahd, but the authors seem to have gone out of their way to make her as two-dimensional as possible and sap all the dramatic weight from the saga. James Jacobs' posts on the Paizo boards make clear he doesn't want the players empathising with her in any way - but why not? I want to do something about that.

I'm currently converting the original A1-A4 Slave Lords adventures for my campaign. The original modules were very sparse on "story". The background for the modules gave you an idea of the basic flow of what was intended, and that was about it. Everything else was open to the DM to do as he will. These adventures are classic dungeon crawls. NPCs don't have names, they're just merchant in room 37. The intended flow is go to this location, and clear it out. Go to that location, and do the same. That type of play can get repetitive, and boring without some underlying motivation. That was something I had to inject into the adventures.

Since this is being played as part of a long term campaign, I went through the trouble of tying the PCs and their backstories to the NPCs that were enslaved, or to the people that hired them to finally put an end to the Slave Lords. The interesting part that flowed out of this is that one of the Slave Lords, Markessa, is going to become that great tragic villain. I'm working out the details but I'm pretty sure she will become a great source of friction, a thorn on their side if you will, but they will probably not want to outright kill her. I already have the hooks in place to one of the PCs and the "story" has been taking a very interesting turn.

I like these classic adventure modules because they are really just a framework that you can build upon. I tend to work well within that open structure.

I've found APs a bit more narrow and "restrictive". However, I've found that their best use is to mine them for ideas, plot points, villains and resources. If you use them in this fashion you can tailor them in extremely interesting ways. Tragic villains are great resources, and the APs do go to a lot of trouble to give you ready made NPCs with somewhat compelling backstories. I might not use as-is, but they present a good starting point for tailoring. I like it when the players end up hating, and at the same time pitying the villain. It makes their PC interactions with the villain much more satisfying.

 

[S'mon]

To add to what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] said, and to reiterate something I posted maybe earlier in this thread or the other one: At the start of the game, you could have the players build the city. Brainstorm it. Let everyone imagine this place, and build on each other's ideas...

Thanks chaochou - I'm taking that advice and will be encouraging players to create bits of the city relevant to their PCs; based on the sketch in the free Players' Guide - I won't be using the full published city guide to Korvosa as that level of detail would get in the way of this approach.

I've taken the advice on this thread and started a web page aimed at getting the campaign off on the right foot when it starts (earliest would be June, that's soon for me!) - http://4ecurseofthecrimsonthrone.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/introductory-notes.html - If you'd like to take a look at it, any further ideas appreciated.

 

[S'mon]

(Spoiler for Curse of the Crimson Throne)

I like it when the players end up hating, and at the same time pitying the villain. It makes their PC interactions with the villain much more satisfying.

Yeah, I have this idea of using some elements of GoT's Daenerys Targaryen for the
dragon-god-possessed Queen Ileosa... "I am the dragon!" - I certainly want her a lot deeper and more complex than the later bits of the AP make her out to be. Basically she's got this massive evil dragon spirit inside her that uses the weaknesses and flaws in her own personality, especially draconic vices like jealousy, spite and avarice, to make her its vassal. But on the other hand there are plenty of later indications that despite the first book saying 'Ileosa died that day' (when involuntarily possessed by the spirit of Kazavon), in fact the dragon does not control her as an empty vessel, it's more a kind of blending of personalities and accentuation of her prior flaws. Book 6 does say that her lover Sabina Merrin, who is not a bad person, thinks Ileosa can be saved/redeemed. Though there's no indication of how, you'd think that with high (15th+) level D&D magic it'd surely be possible. Anyway I think there's a lot to work with, and I hope it comes out in play.

 

[MarkB]

To add to what [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] said, and to reiterate something I posted maybe earlier in this thread or the other one: At the start of the game, you could have the players build the city. Brainstorm it. Let everyone imagine this place, and build on each other's ideas.

The Dresden Files system does this as a part of character generation. The method used there is fairly strongly tied to the FATE rules system, so I wouldn't suggest adopting it wholesale, but if you have access to the book, it's worth mining that section for ideas.

 

[Manbearcat]

Discussing the Savage Tide AP got me thinking, and I had a nice big post typed up about it, but then the forum crapped out and ate it when I went to post, so I'll just give the short version. The gist of it was;

I'm a bit behind and likely will be until late next week so forgive the swimming upthread.

I have no empirical, or even anecdotal, evidence to offer so here is some SWAG.

In my view, regarding the "sense of play" at the table, the important moving parts of a scene-framed approach are:

1) The intra-scene narrative should be malleable and dynamic. If you ran the same scene 20 times, there should be a reasonable breadth of variance within the totality of those trial runs.

2) The next scene should have 3 inputs:
a) Narrative context within the framework of what has come before, in full.
b) The emergent output of the prior scene should inspire the next scene in some way, shape or form. This need, and probably shouldn't be, directly causal, binary or linear. Inspired, not scripted.
c) In relation to b above, the Bang for the next scene should have "the rule of cool" and "genre logic" heavily embedded in its formula.

So long as those marks are hit, I think running the AP as a scene-based game would be fine. But would you be able to "stay on script?" It seems likely not. If that is the case, are you still technically running an AP? That isn't a rhetorical question. I truly don't know as my exposure to them is literally 0. My instinct, admittedly just based off of the implications of "path", says no.

 

[D'karr]

So long as those marks are hit, I think running the AP as a scene-based game would be fine. But would you be able to "stay on script?" It seems likely not. If that is the case, are you still technically running an AP? That isn't a rhetorical question. I truly don't know as my exposure to them is literally 0. My instinct, admittedly just based off of the implications of "path", says no.

If you're able to "hit" all those "notes" you could still use an AP, and somewhat stay "on script". But I don't think you'd want to. The most pressing issue becomes one of "buy-in". If there are strong enough hooks into the desires/goals of the characters you can definitely pull it off. It's just that it's a lot of work. Unless the desires of the PCs line up with the scripted actions it is too much work for, IMO, little payoff.

However, if you use the desires/goals of the scripted NPCs and intersect them with the desires/goals of the PCs, you can make a compelling case to use a lot of the AP material as part of the scene framing.

 

[Kurtomatic]

(Spoiler for Curse of the Crimson Throne)
..Sabina Merrin, who is not a bad person, thinks Ileosa can be saved/redeemed. Though there's no indication of how, you'd think that with high (15th+) level D&D magic it'd surely be possible.

I bet Zon-Kuthon knows how to extract Kazovon's chocolate from Ileosa's peanut butter. /snicker

 

[Manbearcat]

If you're able to "hit" all those "notes" you could still use an AP, and somewhat stay "on script". But I don't think you'd want to. The most pressing issue becomes one of "buy-in". If there are strong enough hooks into the desires/goals of the characters you can definitely pull it off. It's just that it's a lot of work. Unless the desires of the PCs line up with the scripted actions it is too much work for, IMO, little payoff.

However, if you use the desires/goals of the scripted NPCs and intersect them with the desires/goals of the PCs, you can make a compelling case to use a lot of the AP material as part of the scene framing.

Certainly. I don't think it would be worth the effort.

You could make it "work" if the backgrounds of the PCs are so invested in the "AP version" of every scene's rising point, climax and conclusion such that there is little to no variance in the script and in the predictability of the scene's outcome (based on the PC's investment). However, at that point, it seems a bit "self-gratifying" (I would use another word here but its a bit off-color) to do so...and again, likely not worth the effort. It would take considerable resource/background mapping to pull that off.

It doesn't seem AP really plays to the strengths of scene-framing nor do they leverage the same techniques to get toward their respective sought ends. "Thematically coherent, unpredictable, emergent narrative" (GM composing Bangs and interpreting outcomes via "genre logic" and "fiction first" initiative + multiple parties having legitimate, narrative shaping functionality) is the great strength of scene-framing. It seems that APs would likely be "structured, therefore predictable, narrative for thematic coherence" while pure process-sim/gamist sandbox would be "roam around and do fun stuff and if coherence emerges, great...if not, that's ok too...because fun!"

 

[Manbearcat]

It doesn't seem AP really plays to the strengths of scene-framing nor do they leverage the same techniques to get toward their respective sought ends. "Thematically coherent, unpredictable, emergent narrative" (GM composing Bangs and interpreting outcomes via "genre logic" and "fiction first" initiative + multiple parties having legitimate, narrative shaping functionality) is the great strength of scene-framing. It seems that APs would likely be "structured, therefore predictable, narrative for thematic coherence" while pure process-sim/gamist sandbox would be "roam around and do fun stuff and if coherence emerges, great...if not, that's ok too...because fun!"

Examples are often more illuminating, so I'm going to use my old chase/gorge example. Take the following:

The Adventure Path says "The PCs must retrieve the idol from the Snake God's temple in order to lift the curse from the town of Bobville." I'm assuming that the AP will have a lot of fleshed-out specifics regarding its expectations of how this will go down. This might be standard temple dungeon crawl expectations, with the PCs moving from room to room and killing every snake-man they encounter until they attain the idol. Perhaps the adventure path content canvasses some other means in hand-wavey terms; maybe a parlay, or a stealth mission. Nonetheless, it would have an expectation of the PCs performing this task in order to progress along the path and it will have built-in content that canvasses how the PCs interface with the resolution of such plot device.

What happens in a scene-framed scenario? The scene might be totally unrelated to a dungeon crawl. Perhaps the GM just assumes that the Rogue has already successfully navigated the temple structure and he is exiting the temple without pursuit...except a pack of hyenas are stalking his horse which is roped off in a copse of trees! The snake-men are alerted and a chase scene is underway! The Rogue has to deal with the hyenas and get his horse untethered as the snake-men bear down on him. The other PCs are riding up as the jig is up. Perhaps the rogue fails on something and the hyenas take down his horse! The other PCs arrive and they scoop up the Rogue but maybe they fail at something...the entire temple comes in flight after them (well more than they can handle, clearly). Maybe the PCs are dodging arrows/spears while they try to navigate treacherous terrain...maybe the PC that the Rogue is riding with fails a Ride check as he attempts to navigate some rocks while under barrage from the hail of missiles...a GORGE manifests over the next rise and he slams on the breaks...and the satchel flies wide with the idol exploding out of it and over the edge! This last check has dictated that the challenge is lost as the snake-men bear down on the trapped PCs as they frantically look for a way out of this.

You've got all manner of ways to get off of the AP's expectations in both the built-in assumptions of what "must be done to solve the problem" (secure idol and bring to village) and "how it will unfold" (temple crawl versus the scene Bang being an assumed, secured idol and an ensuing chase!). I suppose you can attempt to run it with those AP built-in assumptions. However, it (a) would be difficult to pull off as you would have to interpret each task in line with a fashion that wouldn't take things off of the rails, (b) you'd have to make sure that the resolution is such that they ultimately both "buy-in" and "succeed" at the idol hook, and (c) you'd be at tension with all of the strengths of a scene-framing approach. So that seems to be more work with little payoff. Unless I'm missing something. Which, again, may be the case as I'm making a lot of leaps of logic (?) in terms of how APs are written and scripted.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Examples are often more illuminating, so I'm going to use my old chase/gorge example. Take the following:

The Adventure Path says "The PCs must retrieve the idol from the Snake God's temple in order to lift the curse from the town of Bobville." I'm assuming that the AP will have a lot of fleshed-out specifics regarding its expectations of how this will go down. This might be standard temple dungeon crawl expectations, with the PCs moving from room to room and killing every snake-man they encounter until they attain the idol. Perhaps the adventure path content canvasses some other means in hand-wavey terms; maybe a parlay, or a stealth mission. Nonetheless, it would have an expectation of the PCs performing this task in order to progress along the path and it will have built-in content that canvasses how the PCs interface with the resolution of such plot device.

What happens in a scene-framed scenario? The scene might be totally unrelated to a dungeon crawl. Perhaps the GM just assumes that the Rogue has already successfully navigated the temple structure and he is exiting the temple without pursuit...except a pack of hyenas are stalking his horse which is roped off in a copse of trees! The snake-men are alerted and a chase scene is underway! The Rogue has to deal with the hyenas and get his horse untethered as the snake-men bear down on him. The other PCs are riding up as the jig is up. Perhaps the rogue fails on something and the hyenas take down his horse! The other PCs arrive and they scoop up the Rogue but maybe they fail at something...the entire temple comes in flight after them (well more than they can handle, clearly). Maybe the PCs are dodging arrows/spears while they try to navigate treacherous terrain...maybe the PC that the Rogue is riding with fails a Ride check as he attempts to navigate some rocks while under barrage from the hail of missiles...a GORGE manifests over the next rise and he slams on the breaks...and the satchel flies wide with the idol exploding out of it and over the edge! This last check has dictated that the challenge is lost as the snake-men bear down on the trapped PCs as they frantically look for a way out of this.

You've got all manner of ways to get off of the AP's expectations in both the built-in assumptions of what "must be done to solve the problem" (secure idol and bring to village) and "how it will unfold" (temple crawl versus the scene Bang being an assumed, secured idol and an ensuing chase!). I suppose you can attempt to run it with those AP built-in assumptions. However, it (a) would be difficult to pull off as you would have to interpret each task in line with a fashion that wouldn't take things off of the rails, (b) you'd have to make sure that the resolution is such that they ultimately both "buy-in" and "succeed" at the idol hook, and (c) you'd be at tension with all of the strengths of a scene-framing approach. So that seems to be more work with little payoff. Unless I'm missing something. Which, again, may be the case as I'm making a lot of leaps of logic (?) in terms of how APs are written and scripted.

Well, I would assume something like this sort of AP what would be happening in say Pemerton's game, except ALL the elements related to how it can be accomplished, what the stakes are, etc are all decided by, if not actual action scenes, at least some kind of "step up" by the PCs.

For instance I might imagine it being something like the PCs decide to enter Bobville, the DM offers them a meeting with the local town priest, they accept. The meeting reveals the possibility of a quest being given by said priest. Perhaps the players consult and step up, making it an all-out bid to save the town from the snake cult! The DM can of course offer to pile on more stakes or less stakes so they have a choice, which could range anywhere from "there's some treasure in the old mines" all the way up to "save the town by stealing the idol". The DM might even come out and say "Hey, I've got this AP, and it assumes X, Y, and Z, so if you guys want to play through it then lets frame it up this way." You'll want to play to the PC's personalities of course, so maybe the DM knows one is a valiant fighter against evil, and another is simply a mercenary. Maybe one PC is even looking for a chance to run off with some treasure to settle an old debt!

Anyway, the contents of the adventure can then be offered in line with how the thing was framed at the start, or it might not get quite that explicit. Usually IME the DM does a lot of the offering, so if he's got published material to use, normally he'll offer at least major parts of it as it seems appropriate. You probably won't skip over the whole temple if its say a dungeon crawl, but you might skip past the boring parts with a hand wave, or just reinterpret things so they don't even form part of the story.

No doubt Pemerton will tell me where I'm pretty far off from his way of doing things, but its not far from the way I swing these days. I may even get all the way to completely deciding everything at the spur of the moment, eventually... lol.