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Planescape Do You Care About Planescape Lore?

Do You Care about Planescape Lore?


pemerton

Legend
It's not really Planescape-specific.

<snip>

Now, if modrons or daemons or what have you had several conflicting bodies of lore, those should be reconciled somehow. But Planescape gets a "monopoly" by virtue of being the only setting that talked about them and how it expanded, rather than undermined, non-setting sources.
Here's an analogy:

Nothing in the AD&D Monster Manual tells me where Frost Giants come from, or who rules them. But Greyhawk settles this, in part at least, via the G2 module; and the AD&D DDG tells me that their ruling god is Thrym.

Does that mean that, evermore, the default for D&D is that Frost Giants live in glacial rifts, are ruled by Jarls, and worship the legendary Norse figure Thrym?

The issue for me isn't that this lore does or doesn't contradict prior stuff; it's that it narrows other possibilties and dictates the tone and content of people's games.

The preference of [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and some other posters too, is to have only a light cosmology in the core materials. That's certainly one option. An alternative - for which I have a bit more sympathy - is a default cosmology, but in that case I want the most inspiring, engaging and easy-to-use cosmology, and for me Planescape doesn't tick that box.

Just because Planescape had a number of fans isn't, on its own, a reason to make it the default cosmology.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I've always been sorry the Mirror Plane never got much traction beyond a few monsters in later 3E monster books. I love that plane
4e gives it the same very brief treatment in its MoP. I don't recall any particular mirror creatures in the 4e MMs.

There is a sidebar in the 4e Psionic Power supplement that links the Dream Plane, the Far Realm and a hypothetical plane of logic and order, populated by perfect geometric beings, as the "Phrenic Planes".
 
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pemerton

Legend
Planescape attracted a lot of bashers (not the good kind) from the get-go, primarily the cant-haters and those who wanted the planes reserved for high-level adventuring.
I don't particularly want the planes to be reserved for high-level adventuring. I explained upthread (or maybe in the other, "yugoloth" thread) why I don't really care for Planescape's "secret history" approach to the planes.

On cant, I don't hate it but I do find it pretty inane - elements of working class English slang are still parts of colloquial Australian English, and the idea of this being the esoteric tongue of some otherworldly city just strikes me as silly.
 

Psikosis

Explorer
Sure it matters. We're still talking about it, right?

Next to FR or Dark Sun or Ravenloft, it wasn't very 'good'. I agree that a lot of the faction war stuff was pretty bad. I will NOT climb on my soapbox about Elminster, Drizzt, Szass Tam, or any of that crowd except to say someone needs to meddle with them.

And, for the record, Torment really was a great game. I realize it wasn't always a well-liked game (not least of which was the usual choice of starting point and setting), but it oozed creativity and style in a video game genre that often sorely lacks both. I'm excited about the successful kickstarter to build a successor.
 

Orius

Legend
My concern with this is that many of these creatures - daemons, for instance, but also modrons - existed before and independently of Planescape. I don't see why Planescape gets a monopoly on them any more than Greyhawk, or FR, or Eberron gets a monopoly on what orcs are.

I blame that on the way 2e did things -- everything had to be boxed sets for their precious campaign settings, you couldn't have anything generic beyond the splats. So you want planar material? Well, you don't get a 2e Manual of the Planes, nope here's a big expansive boxed campaign setting so we can crank out 3 boxes on just the Outer Planes, a small box with a CD for The Outlands, then 3 more softcover books on the remaining planes. Then 3 more books just for the monsters. That's not counting the box about the Blood War, another book for the fiends, the player's book, several books on Sigil and the factions and assorted modules, because they're not as useful if you just want the information on the planes.* It's the same reason why the whole idea of bloodlines wasn't covered in a single product for a DM to just plug into a setting, it was combined with running domains (left out of the DMG when it was a typical high-level topic before like planewalking) into Birthright, or why al-Qadim didn't just get an Arabian themed sourcebook like 1e's Oriental Adventures, but instead became a subsetting in the king of 2e settings, the FR. Later 2e material like Council of Wyrms (well for a certain value of later; CoW was 1994, at the height of setting madness) and Jakandor did what this stuff should have been doing all along -- presenting material in a plug-and-play manner that DMs could use in any setting of their choice.

The worst part? Planescape, Birthright, and al-Qadim all had some pretty good stuff, as did the other settings, which makes the fan base fragentation which we're probably still suffering with to some degree more tragic. All that wealth of creativity, and there've always been those who've hated it.

*I have most of this stuff actually and I don't regret getting it, but I'm pointing out just how absurd the campaign setting business model was. Doesn't help either that like I said in my last post the basic planar stuff should be more or less core, but from 1994 to about 1998 or 1999 (if not the edition's remaining run), 2e pretty much had only one thing to say about the planes outside the brief DMG descriptions -- "see Planescape". And it didn't help that some parts of it took several years to get printed (eg, the Inner Planes weren't detailed in PS until late 1998). Not surprising that players that weren't interested about the setting got annoyed by this. I don't agree with them, but I can't necessarily blame them.

The preference of [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], and some other posters too, is to have only a light cosmology in the core materials. That's certainly one option. An alternative - for which I have a bit more sympathy - is a default cosmology, but in that case I want the most inspiring, engaging and easy-to-use cosmology, and for me Planescape doesn't tick that box.

That's the way I would prefer it myself, but that's where we start getting into edition wars. See, I liked 3e's fluff-lite approach which presented stuff do DMs to use as they please, including not use at all. But some people didn't like that at all, so then along comes 4e with its background and cosmology, which doesn't necessarily mesh well with everything before (and as a result, FR gets blown up), and there are gamers that don't particularly care for thsat approach either.

Just because Planescape had a number of fans isn't, on its own, a reason to make it the default cosmology.

The problem is that PS is based on what was the default cosmology before the setting even existed, it didn't just come out of nowhere. So it already had up to 18 years worth of legacy by the time the first PS box saw print.
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
I get the impression that there's a straw man argument (at least how it seems to me) that there is a pernicious type of Planescape fan who demands all other settings change to accommodate Planescape assumptions. Do such fans even exist?

I've never met one. Seems like all the Planescape fans I've met or chatted up online have been pretty laid back about the official lore and quite accommodating of different setting cosmologies. I've never encountered the implied vibe that "Planescape is the one true setting" anywhere.
 

Weather Report

Banned
Banned
The problem is that PS is based on what was the default cosmology before the setting even existed, it didn't just come out of nowhere. So it already had up to 18 years worth of legacy by the time the first PS box saw print.


Bingo, if there needs to be a default cosmology, which I don't think there needs to be, The Great Wheel (Planescape without the dressing) makes the most sense, what with being in the 1st Ed PHB (and entrenched in the 1st Ed Deities & Demigods).
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
I get the impression that there's a straw man argument (at least how it seems to me) that there is a pernicious type of Planescape fan who demands all other settings change to accommodate Planescape assumptions. Do such fans even exist?

I've never met one. Seems like all the Planescape fans I've met or chatted up online have been pretty laid back about the official lore and quite accommodating of different setting cosmologies. I've never encountered the implied vibe that "Planescape is the one true setting" anywhere.

I have seen it. But only in edition wars. And I'm not sure if they were fans moreso than warriors using it as ammunition.
 

Hussar

Legend
I get the impression that there's a straw man argument (at least how it seems to me) that there is a pernicious type of Planescape fan who demands all other settings change to accommodate Planescape assumptions. Do such fans even exist?

I've never met one. Seems like all the Planescape fans I've met or chatted up online have been pretty laid back about the official lore and quite accommodating of different setting cosmologies. I've never encountered the implied vibe that "Planescape is the one true setting" anywhere.

Quoting from the Yugoloth's thread:

Quote Originally Posted by Shemeska View Post
Unfortunately that wouldn't work, as the 'loths have an innate hatred of gods, and that role would contradict a lot of their schtick. While they'll work for them if it fits their own plans and the price is right, they'll never do it as servants as opposed to mercenaries, and at no point will they ever have faith in one of those divinities.

I'd personally prefer just a lot more unique servitors for specific evil gods, highlighting the lack of trust and unity among evil compared to angels/aasimon as collective servitors of good gods, without depriving evil gods of servitors of their own (and not having to rely exclusively on demons/devils/etc since those have their own goals and priorities that would be diminished by being primarily servitors to gods).

And, right here. THIS is what I'm talking about. "Loth's have an innate hatred of gods"? Where does that come from? It's not in the Monster Manual entry. It's not in the article here that we're reading. So, exactly where does this come from?

Shemeska is flat out telling another poster that his version of 'Loths is wrong. Why? Because:

2e Planescape. The best details come from the subchapter 'The Godless Yugoloths' in Hellbound: The Blood War.

As for why it isn't in the article? I truly can't say, but the article is relatively shallow on many details, concentrating more on some mechanics and how many arms mezzoloths and nycaloths should have* rather than the history, mythology, and motivations of the 'loths from many 2e and 3e sources. I think the latter is more important myself, but again, YMMV.

*(I kinda like the 4 arms version that arose admittedly so in 3e from a misinterpretation on the art order and stuck around thereafter)

So, we are forced to kowtow to Planescape, despite none of the material actually showing up in core D&D in any edition.

So, no, it's really not a strawman.
 

Weather Report

Banned
Banned
So, we are forced to kowtow to Planescape, despite none of the material actually showing up in core D&D in any edition.


That's not true; 1st Ed PHB, DMG, MM, MM 2, Deities & Demigods, Manual of the Planes.

And what is this forced kowtowing, where is it happening? A bit dramatic, I would say.
 
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