• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Riley

Legend
Supporter
No damsels in distress, no nearly-naked sorceresses, no crazy poses worthy of Hawkeye, etc....

I think it's vital to be inclusive, so you want to have male, female, dark, light, and in-between skinned protagonists in the artwork and text.

I don't think it needs to tackle sexual relationships at all in the text, but if it somehow needs to, then I'm all in favor of inclusiveness there, too.

-O

This. My daughter is black (and 4, so she's not quite playing D&D yet), and she instantly gravitates to illustrations that include Seelah, Paizo's iconic (black, female) paladin:

Pathfinder7_Paladin.jpg

Whether we like it or not, kids often gravitate to images that reflect who they are, and who they want to be. If we want the game to appeal to more than white adolescent boys, then the iconic imagery needs to reflect that aspiration.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Dausuul

Legend
Yes, it should.

Characters portrayed in the artwork should display a variety of ethnic backgrounds, well distributed across white/black/Asian/Native American. While I care as much about verisimilitude as anybody, it's not a concern here; the sword-and-sorcery tradition of D&D lends itself well to cosmopolitan settings like the cultures of the Mediterranean, where you'd see people of many ethnicities mixing freely. The fantasy genre's focus on Northern Europe as historical source material is largely an artifact of Tolkien's choice to use it as the basis for the cultures of Middle-Earth, and it's long past time we got over deifying Tolkien. He was a great writer in a field with many great writers, not the be-all and end-all of fantasy. Bad enough we're still shackled to having elves and dwarves in every dang setting, they don't all have to be white too.

Likewise, they should be both male and female, and cheesecake should be limited and evenly distributed across the sexes. To the extent that sexual relationships are implied by the art or the setting material, some of those relationships should be gay or lesbian.

Over the last couple of editions, Wizards has been moving in the right direction. As long as they continue to do so, I'm happy. I wouldn't mind if they moved a little faster though. ;)

(Also, just for fun, how about tinkering with sexual dimorphism a bit in the nonhuman races? Maybe dwarves aren't sexually dimorphic, with males and females being equally big and strong. Maybe female elves are bigger than males--I think this is already established with the drow. Just a nice opportunity to play around with our assumptions.)
 
Last edited:

delericho

Legend
(Also, just for fun, how about tinkering with sexual dimorphism a bit in the nonhuman races? Maybe dwarves aren't sexually dimorphic, with males and females being equally big and strong. Maybe female elves are bigger than males--I think this is already established with the drow. Just a nice opportunity to play around with our assumptions.)

I like this. Actually, I always liked the suggestion that dragonborn males should have some sort of decorative crest, rather than the females having dragonboobs.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I disagree with you, on many levels.

For one thing, discussing the consequences of something is, in essence, a discussion of morality, insofar as we're trying to determine if the consequences are "good" or "bad."

I disagree with that framing. I won't go into exactly why in public here, but suffice it to say that consequences are not usually so binary, so any value judgement is often incomplete at best.

Secondly, I think it's important to remember that the consequences to something are, in essence, unknown. You can make predictions with varying expectations of accuracy, but even that is something that I don't think really applies here - the consequences of something like the artwork or writing style of a tabletop RPG are so diffuse and difficult to positively determine that it is, at best, an educated guess (usually made without specifics).

It's an imprecise prediction, but a company's bottom line often depends on being able to minimize the variation of that prediction. This is what marketing teams and brand teams and analysts and such are for.

It probably wasn't forecasted in much detail when Gygax sketched a bare-breasted "Amazon" in the wood-grain box's booklet (actually, did he do those sketches himself? Hmm...), but I don't think it's ever not been meticulously forecasted under WotC's guideance. What wound up on the cover of the PHB for 4e was no accident, it was specifically chosen to have an specific effect in a specific market.

Even if WotC decided that it wasn't going to choose artwork with those criteria anymore, whatever artwork it did choose, by whatever criteria, would still have certain effects in certain markets. They can't escape the consequences of their actions.

Further, holding that the consequences are the most important part of a decision often (I think) leads to very bad places, as it typifies the "ends justify the means" method of making decisions. In this case, what you do is unimportant (as is the state of mind you're in when you do it), so long as it brings about the consequences you want. (This is without getting into the practical issues of determining and measuring what the consequences are).

That's neither here nor there with regards to WotC's artwork, though.

For what it's worth, I did some checking and what you're talking about is the philosophy of consequentialism, which is different from virtue ethics (which is concerned with the intent of the person doing the deed), and the methodology I was espousing, which is deontological ethics.

As such, we're approaching the OP's question from entirely different perspectives.

I'm just stating that it's impossible to remove oneself from the consequences of one's actions, intentional or no. WotC can't pretend like it its art choice isn't going to have an effect on the world it's in because that's not actually true, and they know it. They are going to have an effect. They know it. They have a responsibility to consider what that effect will be, and they cannot rid themselves of this responsibility.
 

sabrinathecat

Explorer
For that matter, why do dragonborn females have breasts? Aren't they reptilian? Like... DRAGONS?

As for exaggerated proportions--have you seen how muscle-bound some of the male art is? Massive steroids required for that kind of result. Which would mean something else is lacking... No wonder they have to wander around and keep such big props to make themselves feel more manly!
(OK, that was meant as a joke, but this is the internet, and sometimes people misread or misinterpret.)
 

Obryn

Hero
....I would absolutely love the D&D book that was ballsy enough to try something like this, though.

Full splash page of a single silvery dot in a glossy black field entitled "A Paladin In Hell."

Some cubist nightmare of orcs attacking a city.

Man, that'd be awesome.... :)
Hah, true! It's one of the reasons I'm getting a paper copy of Ehdrigohr from a recent kickstarter. There's some very cool watercolor and pastel art by Anna Todaro. (And yes, It was commissioned.) ;)

image-200398-full.jpg


-O
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I disagree with that framing. I won't go into exactly why in public here, but suffice it to say that consequences are not usually so binary, so any value judgement is often incomplete at best.

My previous posts make it clear that I'm not advocating a binary set of results (indeed, I objected to what I perceived as Obryn's characterization of just that). My saying that morality was a metric of measuring if things were "good" or "bad" was meant to be an overview, not a summation of all possible results. As I noted previously, I think that issues of social consciousness in artwork are supererogatory, and as such deal with things that can be "not bad" while also being "not good."

It's an imprecise prediction, but a company's bottom line often depends on being able to minimize the variation of that prediction. This is what marketing teams and brand teams and analysts and such are for.

It probably wasn't forecasted in much detail when Gygax sketched a bare-breasted "Amazon" in the wood-grain box's booklet (actually, did he do those sketches himself? Hmm...), but I don't think it's ever not been meticulously forecasted under WotC's guideance. What wound up on the cover of the PHB for 4e was no accident, it was specifically chosen to have an specific effect in a specific market.

Even if WotC decided that it wasn't going to choose artwork with those criteria anymore, whatever artwork it did choose, by whatever criteria, would still have certain effects in certain markets. They can't escape the consequences of their actions.

Again, this is a philosophy that I don't personally subscribe to. As noted previously, if we're looking at merit (or lack thereof) the issue of consequences is irrelevant in terms of a deontological point of view. What's most important is the action itself; the effect it has has very little meaning.

I'm not suggesting that WotC isn't focused on the consequences of the choices they make, but the issue at hand here is what they "should" do in regards to the commonly-perceived virtue of inclusiveness. In that regard, you seem to hold that any consequences that promote a general tone of inclusiveness are good, and those that fail to do so are bad (or are you saying that failing to do so is "bad" per se? Because there's a difference between something that is lacking virtue and something that has fault).

That said, there is no need to "escape" the consequences of their actions; those consequences are meaningless, insofar as determining their ethical value is concerned.

That's neither here nor there with regards to WotC's artwork, though.

I disagree. In this case, it allows for one to, I feel, mischaracterize the nature of WotC's artwork by impugning the results of that art, rather than the for the artwork itself.

I'm just stating that it's impossible to remove oneself from the consequences of one's actions, intentional or no. WotC can't pretend like it its art choice isn't going to have an effect on the world it's in because that's not actually true, and they know it. They are going to have an effect. They know it. They have a responsibility to consider what that effect will be, and they cannot rid themselves of this responsibility.

I disagree that they have such a responsibility, not only because it's at best a guessing game as to what those consequences will be and how much impact they'll have, but because the effect of what they do is immaterial compared to the nature of the actions themselves. There is no need to, nor attempt to, "remove" onesself from the consequences. If you paint a picture that fails to showcase inclusiveness, and that incites someone to rage or depression, that is not something you should feel guilty over, as what you did was not morally reprehensible.
 

Gilbetron

First Post
Should D&D go out of its way to promote equality? No.
You can promote equality or you can promote inequality, there is no neutral option. If you have a book full of white dudes, you are promoting inequality. I've said it before and I'm saying it again, WotC should randomly roll all the attributes of all the various characters shown throughout the game, adjusting the random tables for specific requirements if necessary.
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
You can promote equality or you can promote inequality, there is no neutral option.

Good to know. As there are no neutral options in this regard, can you tell me if the picture of a grizzly bear that I'm looking at right now promote equality, or inequality? :p
 

Moorcrys

Explorer
For that matter, why do dragonborn females have breasts? Aren't they reptilian? Like... DRAGONS?

Yeah, it bugged me too. To me, it looks ridiculous. Of all the 4th edition art, this bugged me only marginally less than entire art conceptualization of the Wilden. Whoever steered the art department in that direction must have had an unhealthy obsession with Cats! The Musical. The iconic Wilden characters of 4th edition should all have names like 'Rumpleshanks' and 'Brisslebum'.

Cheers.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.

Voidrunner's Codex

Remove ads

Top