D&D 5E Should the next edition of D&D promote more equality?

[Mishihari Lord]

Here's my last bit on gender-based Str mods:

Given that PC races in D&D may vary by hundreds of pounds of body mass from humans and only be +-2 Str from the human norm, then any gender-based Str mod of statistical significance to the game makes zero sense.

Put differently, if a muscle and bone mass difference of as much as 3x the body mass of an adult male is only worth +2 to Str across species, a difference within a species of 100lbs or less is not worth calculating.

I think this is a better argument that differences in strength bonuses should be larger between races than that strength bonuses between genders should be smaller.

I based my estimate on RAW (2e) and actual data. If someone doesn't like the idea for ideological reasons, that's perfectly understandable, but I don't think the math can be argued.

 

[Sonny]

My argument is mostly that I am sick and tired of my entire (publicly presented) gender being portrayed and treated as stupid, as purely ornamental but totally ineffective eye candy. I am sick and tired of getting the message with every RPG book I pick up that this material is mainly intended for the enjoyment of heterosexual males, at the expense of portraying women as stupid, petty and vain, eg, prioritizing looking hot over dressing appropriately for the job they're supposed to be doing. I am sick and tired of being treated like a second class citizen at the gaming table when the attitude about women being the visual objects of the game rather than normal fellow players spills over to real life.

I don't see it having anything to do with morality. Porn is good, porn is fine, porn is a completely different issue from inappropriately sexualizing women in situations where it is suicidally stupid for them to be sexualized. That's an insult to everyone's intelligence. Seriously, that chainmail bikini is going to protect anyone from Orc arrows, how? That is *stupid*, and the stupid is what needs to stop. Not the sex, just the stupid.

Agreed. I don’t think the amount of half dressed women still running around today’s rpg books can be understated.

Even Paizo, who is considered something of a high water mark in this industry for gender and LGBT equality, still has serious issues with their art.
Take a look at the NPC Codex*, plenty of armored women with their midriffs exposed, boobs being pushed out, women wizards barely dressed (because no armor means no clothes right?)

It’s really not that hard to have art guidelines telling freelancers to not do this kind of crap. Seriously.



*No the entire NPC Codex isn't like this. Plenty of sensibly attired women in it as well.

 

[Kinak]

It’s really not that hard to have art guidelines telling freelancers to not do this kind of crap. Seriously.

It's more a question of whether you have time to send art back to the artist (or contract a new freelancer) when they ignore it.

I forget which Paizoan was talking about it, but they've gotten multiple pieces of contracted art where nipples are poking through leather armor. Which is absurd on so many levels.

So it's not something that can just be waved away with the wand of company policy. It's something that actually has to be worked on.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Sunseeker]

It's more a question of whether you have time to send art back to the artist (or contract a new freelancer) when they ignore it.

Well, if they're contracted simply write it into the contract. If they're freelancing, simply don't pay them when they ignore your rules. I mean it's really not that complicated. If I commission an artist to draw me something and lay down the rules which include "No bikini plate." "no nipples poking out of armor" and "no visible middrifts, thighs or cleavage" and they give me this:


Then the simple answer is that they're not getting paid. End of story. It's not like the artists that Wizards has working for them are incapable of drawing women in fuller clothing. Wizards just knows sex sells.

 

[Hussar]

I think this is a better argument that differences in strength bonuses should be larger between races than that strength bonuses between genders should be smaller.

I based my estimate on RAW (2e) and actual data. If someone doesn't like the idea for ideological reasons, that's perfectly understandable, but I don't think the math can be argued.

The problem with AD&D stats though is they don't scale. There's a huge difference between a 17 STR and a 19 STR. Far more than, say, 15 and 17. So, how do you adjust for that?

Never mind that STR is really the only stat that has even remotely concrete numbers attached to it. What does a 17 Con actually mean? Or a 14 Wisdom? Heck, a 9 Charisma? The only reason you can even attempt this is because you are looking at max lift numbers. But, the thing is, so many other things are tied to that max lift number.

Why should I get to hit things more often just because I can lift more weight over my head? How does that make any sense?

 

[delericho]

Well, if they're contracted simply write it into the contract. If they're freelancing, simply don't pay them when they ignore your rules. I mean it's really not that complicated.

That sounds great in theory. But when you have a book that must go to the printer today and that must have a piece of artwork for a given page, and your freelancer has sent you something you'd really rather not use, then what do you do?

 

[Kinak]

Then the simple answer is that they're not getting paid. End of story. It's not like the artists that Wizards has working for them are incapable of drawing women in fuller clothing. Wizards just knows sex sells.

My understanding, at least with Paizo, is that they typically pay people who hand over bad art and just don't work with them again. Less messy that way, apparently.

Regardless of whether you're bringing in a new artist or having the first artist fix things up, that still moves you closer to the publication date. It's not a question of getting the best art you theoretically could, but the best in the time allotted.

I totally agree with you, though, that Wizards could have a lot less sexualized art if they put the effort into it. All I wanted to point out is that it involves actual effort. After all, there's more to managing contractors than issuing dictums and assuming everything will fall into place.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Dausuul]

That sounds great in theory. But when you have a book that must go to the printer today and that must have a piece of artwork for a given page, and your freelancer has sent you something you'd really rather not use, then what do you do?

What would you do if the freelancer got hit by a bus and didn't send you anything at all? There are options. For small details (e.g., nipples poking through leather), a bit of Photoshopping would take care of it. For larger issues, Wizards has an enormous supply of artwork accumulated over decades. Dig out something suitable.

I also find it hard to believe that many freelancers would do this kind of stuff if Wizards made it clear that it wouldn't be tolerated. If all you've got is some art guidelines, sure, people ignore those, because you're calling them "guidelines" instead of "rules" and you aren't doing anything to indicate that this is particularly important to you. If you make a point to tell your freelancers that you simply will not accept artwork that violates certain rules--either you won't pay for it, or you'll pay for it but won't use it and will never give them any repeat business--and the list of rules is small enough to remember and follow, they'll pay attention.

Besides, doesn't Wizards ask for sketches or concept art first? Surely most such problems could be caught at that stage. Maybe not small details, but how often do you get a sketch of a woman in full armor and the finished art has her in a chainmail bikini?

I totally agree with you, though, that Wizards could have a lot less sexualized art if they put the effort into it. All I wanted to point out is that it involves actual effort. After all, there's more to managing contractors than issuing dictums and assuming everything will fall into place.

That, I certainly agree with. People get bombarded with so much corporate boilerplate and so many pro forma policies that if you don't go out of your way to point out the stuff you really do care about, they won't pay much attention.

 

[Hussar]

To be fair to Wizards, you don't actually see too many chainmail bikinis in WOTC art anymore. I'm not saying that you never see it, but, it's not too terribly frequent.

Some of the art tends to be a bit over the top, but, it has gotten MILES better than it used to be. It's not like they're using Boris Vajello and Julie Bell images.

 

[Nellisir]

To be fair to Wizards, you don't actually see too many chainmail bikinis in WOTC art anymore. I'm not saying that you never see it, but, it's not too terribly frequent.

No, but the belly buttons are everywhere. Sheesh.