How to avoid ridiculous player character builds

[Ragmon]

I wish to argue a few points.

1. Spell-casters and the core craft feats. You can disallow the items from being bought/sold, but the players can still make 'em? That is not balanced or fair you are giving and even larger advantage to casters.
2. Multi-classing is not a problem at any level. Why is this such a problem? (Do you allow prestige classes?)
3. Why Miniature Handbook?
4. How about erretas?

Now my opinion about the post: What I see is your trying to limit the players so that they can make weird, overpowered, nonsensical characters. I can do that with only using the PHB, dwarf - druid who shaves, elf - cleric worshiping Moradin and wearing a false beard, gnome - wizard transmuter using alter self, polymorph, polymorph other shape-change and so on. - These are the races and classes that are broken/overpowered compared to the others.
Balance issues start at the beginning, races number wise are not equal (compare the dwarf with the Half-or and Half-elf). Classes like wizard who hold person you and just insta kill you (all spell casters are more powerfull then anyone without spellcasting).
Feats, whats would you rather take Awareness (+2 listen and spot) or the ability to craft magical items?
And lets say Diplomacy? How is that balanced? You can get this to a fairly high score very early, that and spend some points on languages and you can charm anyone at will (1 rounds if you take your time, 1 round if you take a -10).

I recommend taking these steps:
a. If you want to balance things, completely rework how spellcasters and how magic works in 3.X. Without the rework there will be no balance between the classes.
b. Balance out the races, the numbers are all over the place, I recomend removing any core half race to make things fair, OR give the Half- orc and elf some numbers to bring them up to the level of the dwarf, elf, halfling, gnome.
c. Magic items are fine the way they are, very rarely do I see a post trying to fix them. Cause you as the DM can make the item go away via plot.

Final words: If your the DM, its easy to counter the players and keep them in check, "oh so your a Wizard/incatatrix...what ever casting 3 spells in a round? Oh what is that hovering around the corner? Hey looks its the local Beholder and its looking at you.... ", "Your diplomacy is how high? The golem does not care much for your smooth talking". "So you took 2 level of monk for the evasion? Roll fortitude." Aaaand so on.

DM trumps BS every day.

 

[the Jester]

In my opinion, restricting magic items is the single decision *most* likely to cause *severe* imbalance between spell-using and non-spell-using characters in your game.

If a fighter is able to purchase a fligth object, it puts him on equal footing with the wizard with his fly spell. If a wizard picks up a similar item, he just saves the spell slot he would have dedicated to that spell. Guess which character loses the most by your decision?

Congrats, you've just severely depowered the non-caster PCs while just mildly inconveniencing the caster PCs...

Apropos of another discussion going on here, this MIGHT work if you also limited caster spell acquisition by getting rid of the free spells learned at level up and restricting wizards to learning new spells ONLY from scrolls.

You'd also have to reign in the cleric and druid lists, maybe restrict them to a certain number of spells known like a sorcerer (albeit with a greater number of known spells to account for how many "you're hosed without [death ward, neutralize poison, etc]" spells are on their list).

 

[Ahnehnois]

You'd also have to reign in the cleric and druid lists, maybe restrict them to a certain number of spells known like a sorcerer (albeit with a greater number of known spells to account for how many "you're hosed without [death ward, neutralize poison, etc]" spells are on their list).

There is a spontaneous divine casting variant on the books. I do that, and I don't see any need for a proviso on "essential" spells. I don't even give good clerics Cure spells for free. Let 'em make some tough choices.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

We kept it simpler. You could build what you wanted out of the PHB. Everything else was generally only available if the DM offered it. Though it was generally possible to purchase or commission magic items.

For the most part, we always frowned upon prestige classes and non-core feats. Not that we never used them, but limiting their use kept the game predictable.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Restricting books and items and such is usually more of an excuse for saying "I can't be bothered to learn the rules for these things, so I'm just going to ban them." Now, saying you aren't going to learn a certain rules set isn't a bad thing necessarily since it can take considerable time and effort to do that you might not be able to put in. But there are definitely those DMs who do it out of laziness or ignorance of how great some of the non-core stuff is.

Some of the better ways to nip crazy stuff in the bud though:

1: Don't play with abusive players. If you know someone is going to try to break the game and make things difficult for everyone, don't invite them to play. Or if they do end up playing, see the rest of this list for ways on how to deal with them.

2: All players must be able to cite the sources for stuff that isn't well-known to the group (and even some well-known stuff should get a look at. I once played with a guy who thought rangers only got one Favored Enemy when they very clearly get 5 by level 20). This means actually being able to open the book, website, etc and show the DM the exact rules.

3: All players must be able to actually describe the rules for their character, and put in the effort to actually help the DM go through them if something seems off. If they can't be bothered to help the DM understand what's going on (and do so civilly too) then they need to act their act together. And definitely make sure you have the player going over some of the better things their character can do that aren't always obvious (like Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch).

4: Tying very much into the above two, the DM should vet everything. Yes, it can be a pain in the butt, but do keep in mind that it helps tremendously to know what your players and their characters are capable of in order to make fun and interesting adventures for them. If they're expecting fun challenges and then steamroll through it or die in the first few encounters then someone screwed up. It might have been the players not making use of their resources like the DM thought they would (could be a player or DM mistake), or it might have been the DM miscalculating just how powerful or weak something was.

4a: Vetting everything also helps keep surprises to a minimum. If you know the wizard can cast Spectral Hand and Shivering Touch, don't be surprised when that dragon gets its Dex damaged to 0 and then killed by a Coup de Grace while it's helpless, assuming you didn't give it protections against that kind of stuff (which any dragon would have if the spell is any kind of known.)

 

[Jacob Marley]

Apropos of another discussion going on here, this MIGHT work if you also limited caster spell acquisition by getting rid of the free spells learned at level up and restricting wizards to learning new spells ONLY from scrolls.

You'd also have to reign in the cleric and druid lists, maybe restrict them to a certain number of spells known like a sorcerer (albeit with a greater number of known spells to account for how many "you're hosed without [death ward, neutralize poison, etc]" spells are on their list).

There is an assumption inherent in [MENTION=60045]Tuft[/MENTION]'s post that the DM isn't just providing the players with useful and appropriate magic items to begin with. If I am giving out Boots of Levitation and Potions of Fly as a normal part of distributing treasure, does it actually matter that I am limiting magic item shops?

 

[Quartz]

One of the better ways to depower spellcasters in 3E is to encourage item creation. Sure they'll have lots of gewgaws but they'll be a level or two behind the non-spellcasters, and they'll be creating items for the non-spellcasters too. This also prevents the 15 minute day. Basically, prepared spellcasters should have items for the magic they expect to use (lightning bolt, feather fall, gaze reflection, comprehend languages etc) and keep their precious spell slots for the more unusual spells and for emergency spells.

I encouraged and de-restricted multi-classing. A wizard might actually be a wizard / fighter / eldritch knight or wizard / sorcerer / ultimate magus. The fighter might actually be a fighter / rogue or fighter / monk / paladin / divine crusader or barbarian / fighter / monk.

I used an Epic style save progression: level/2 + class bonus, and class bonuses are not cumulative.

 

[Greg K]

In the campaigns that I run:
1. Races, classes, and UA style class variants are determined by the DM prior to the campaign

2. Classes in my campaigns are, normally, limited to the PHB classes (minus the monk), Hong's Knight, OA shaman (slightly modified UA variant and this replaces the monk) plus the following Green Ronin classes: Holy Warrior, Psychic, Shaman, Witch, and Thaumaturge.

3. Clerics
a) are UA spontaneous divine casters whose spell lists are limited to their domains plus a handful of "universal" cleric spells (e.g., augury, bestow curse (effects are domain specified), remove curse, mark of justice, planar ally (a single creature associated with the deity). This also means animal boosts are each, now, limited to a specific domain/deity.
b) clerics must worship one of the campaign's deities (predetermined by DM)
c) like paladins, clerics are beholden to the concepts of their deity (provided to the player). Transgressions have consequences depending upon severity.
d) Armor and Shields: starting armor proficiency is determined by deity. Normally, limited to leather and no shields
e) Skill Points: 4+int per level (x4 at first level) (for classes that cannot wear armor they get 6+skill points)

4. Druids
1) are UA spontaneous divine casters.
2) are limited to
3) Wild shape and Animal Companions are limited in terms of creature types (no dire animals, elementals, etc.). Also starting companion types are limited to the home environment.

5. Fighters
a. choose Reflex or Will as a second good save category
b. Skill Points: 4+Int skill points per level (x4 at 1st level)
c. substitute BAB for skill ranks in combat for combat uses of Bluff, Sense Motive, Tumble
d. get a Fighting Style at first level (Book of Iron Might)

6. Wizards:
a. must find their spells (3.0 Training variant).

7. Clerics, Druids, Sorcerer, Wizard: I have not used it, but I have considered making the cleric, druid, sorcerer, and paladin use the bard's spell progression should I run 3e again (Currently, I run Savage Worlds for fantasy and True20 would be my first choice for class/level these days. 3e would be my next choice after these two)). This was inspired by an Andy Collins' house rule in which he did not allow them to take back to back levels in the same spell casting class). I saw that and thought why not just use the bard's progression.

8. Multiclassing:
a) a trainer is required (3.0 Training variant)
b) characters need to convince the person to train them and have uninterrupted time to train.
c) multi-classing into a spell casting class requires the ability to cast spells of that class's type (feats granting 3 0-level spells work) + ranks in religion, nature, or arcane. Other classes have their own requirements
d) multi-classing does not grant the new classes armor and weapons. Take feats (including class bonus feats)
e) multi-classing does not grant the new classes saving throw bonus. Take the appropriate save feats.

9. Book of Iron Might maneuver system. Allows fighter types to do cool things. This leads to changes
a) True Strike: turns a miss into a normal hit (Book of Iron Might)
b) Tenser's Transformation and Divine Might are removed

10. Magic Item Creation:
a) replaced with slot creation from Artificer's Handbook (Mystic Eye Games)
b) time and costs increased


I have a lot of other house rules including banning and/or altering certain spells, but the above are some of my ways that I balance out classes (the OA shaman replacement of the monk excluded. That is a flavor reason).

 

[Tuft]

There is an assumption inherent in [MENTION=60045]Tuft[/MENTION]'s post that the DM isn't just providing the players with useful and appropriate magic items to begin with. If I am giving out Boots of Levitation and Potions of Fly as a normal part of distributing treasure, does it actually matter that I am limiting magic item shops?

Yep, got to admit that it was my assumption.

But, to be frank, I don't see much difference between the wishlist approach (which is what I assume you mean by "DM providing") and the purchase approach - it is merely a question if your stuff on order is delivered during adventures or between them...

 

[Tuft]

One of the better ways to depower spellcasters in 3E is to encourage item creation. Sure they'll have lots of gewgaws but they'll be a level or two behind the non-spellcasters, and they'll be creating items for the non-spellcasters too. This also prevents the 15 minute day. Basically, prepared spellcasters should have items for the magic they expect to use (lightning bolt, feather fall, gaze reflection, comprehend languages etc) and keep their precious spell slots for the more unusual spells and for emergency spells.

Got to agree with this.

This would have been an XP comment if those had been visible...