Pathfinder 1E Multiclassing - Make 'em train for it, or just give it away?

[Cadence]

That having been said I personally would be inclined to allow trainingless multi-classing into Barbarian moreso than almost any other class including sorcerer. Fantasy is full of tropes of heros who need guidance to unlock their magical inner potential, whereas the barbarian is just a guy with a bad temper.

Rereading all of Howard's Conan this past year, I'm inclined to go the other way and say Barbarian should be one of the harder classes to get into - unlike magic and sword craft you can't study being the uncivilized other, you have to live it. But I'm always open to a good story about why the character suddenly got the ability to run faster, rage, dodge, be tougher than people whose entire training is combat, and find traps using a sixth sense.

Multiclassing is just a default assumption of the game; there's no logical reason to force training on a PC doing that if you don't require it in all cases. More importantly, having the possibility of no training for some things while requiring it for others is blatantly unfair to those who are saddled with the training requirement and will tend to make those players angry.

The character advancing in a single class presumably spent years in an apprenticeship or had vast life experiences developing many of the things that go along with being in that class: a host of weapon/armor proficiencies, +2 bonuses on several saves, a host of class-skills, and the capability for some self study/improvement. That different classes take a different amount of this pre-adventure training is acknowledged in the starting age table for the classes. The self-training idea is explicitly mentioned in the Wizard section on spell-books. Multi-classing in RAW just hands the character a huge platter of feat-equivalent powers in addition to a level's worth of ability - things that a character advancing in-class doesn't get.

So what's the over-riding opinion out there for multiclassing? Give it away or make him earn it?

I'd like the rules for multi-classing to:
* Give the really simple formulas that make the BAB and saves make sense (why do Sorc+Wiz attack worse than just Sorc 2?, why the extra +2s on saves?). So each class has either a 1/2-per level or 1/3-level in each save with non-stackable +2 bonuses at first level, and gets a BAB per level of either 1/2, 3/4, or 1.
* Require some in-game reason why the multi-classing made sense. If they had a point or two in survival and intimidate, already had a bit of berzerker personality, and mentioned a few sessions before advancement time that they were working towards that, then I'd be inclined to let it slide without some outside or down-time training (it is just a game). Similarly, if no one else at the table strongly objected, I'd probably cave and let them do it if they said - "You know, if I'd thought about it I would have put those skill points back when in intimidate and survival to start barbarizing myself. Can we rewrite space-time as if I had?" If they have essentially nothing in common with a Barbarian in terms of background or class skills, and want to just pick it up with no training or story beyond wanting some prestige class... then I have a hard time imagining it's for role-playing reasons.
* Limit the number of class-skills, armor/weapon proficiencies, and +2 save bonuses (not stacking) they get from the new class. Maybe 3 or 5 per level of that class taken? Same for prestige classes.

 

[MoonSong]

To me it seems the main problem your player had wasn't "you need to find a trainer" but rather feeling you were telling him how to play into his character, I know you wanted to be helpful but he probably felt something along the lines of "you cannot be a barbarian, if you want to multiclass you have to be a fighter". Besides I don't see anything wrong with him receiving training from the fighter and still be a Barbarian. Barbarian itself is a very simple class nobody should really need training for beyond weapon proficiency (and that can be learned from the fighter). So basically nothing wrong with your houserule, but you should be more open minded for it to work out better.

Can a cleric gain a level of bard if he trains with the rogue(for skilly stuff), the fighter(for fighty stuff) and the wizard(for lore and magics)? I'd say yes. Can a sorcerer become a paladin if he trains with the cleric and the fighter? i'd say yes again.

I'd say just let it roll instead of risking making your player miserable and discontent with his character. Besides now that this situation happened it will seem as if you are suddenly picking on him when the inevitable temporal nerfing coming his way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But I'm always open to a good story about why the character suddenly got the ability to run faster, rage, dodge, be tougher than people whose entire training is combat, and find traps using a sixth sense.

A shamanistic ritual (involving consumption of "godflesh") sends the participant into a mystic journey through the dreams of the world. There, he discovers his totemic self, and if he is open to it, he is transformed... Not all who undergo the rite will be so transformed, only those open to it.

(He goes to see the witch-doctor, ingests some hallucinogens under the influence of divine magic, and gets to take a level, and you only get the barbarian level if that is what you were looking for.)

 

[Cadence]

A shamanistic ritual (involving consumption of "godflesh") sends the participant into a mystic journey through the dreams of the world. There, he discovers his totemic self, and if he is open to it, he is transformed... Not all who undergo the rite will be so transformed, only those open to it.

(He goes to see the witch-doctor, ingests some hallucinogens under the influence of divine magic, and gets to take a level, and you only get the barbarian level if that is what you were looking for.)

That looks like a pretty darn solid justification to me!

 

[billd91]

I think you could easily justify the barbarian rage by making it an aspect of his innate magical ability. Look into the description of various Irish heroes's warp frenzy. You could say that the sorcerer's magic warps the body to a degree and that's the source of the rage modifications.

Honestly, once you've got a character with some peculiar innate magical ability, like a sorcerer, you can justify just about anything as a multiclass.

 

[N'raac]

Ah yes, the spell casting comment does make the intent pretty clear cut -- although the fact that the PF guys excised this particular restriction from the rage text makes one wonder...

Wonder no more - read Rage Prophets at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/prestigeClasses/rageProphet.html. Start with the Raging Healer ability. Personally, I think "Barbarians cannot concentrate while raging" and "casting a spell requires the caster to concentrate" are clear enough without needing to be further spelled out in an ability available to a class whose abilities don't include spellcasting anyway.

 

[doghead]

Rereading all of Howard's Conan this past year, I'm inclined to go the other way and say Barbarian should be one of the harder classes to get into - unlike magic and sword craft you can't study being the uncivilized other, you have to live it. But I'm always open to a good story about why the character suddenly got the ability to run faster, rage, dodge, be tougher than people whose entire training is combat, and find traps using a sixth sense.

I tend to agree. Being a barbarian is more than being a a fighter with a bad temper. There is a mystical quality to it. And I think that there should be some form of mystical element to the characters evolution into a barbarian. Just finding another barbarian and saying, "Hey, I want to be a barbarian too. Teach me." doesn't seem to cut it.

My inclination would be to say yes, then come up with some way that it can happen. It should probably require some form of effort or investment by the character.

A shamanistic ritual (involving consumption of "godflesh") sends the participant into a mystic journey through the dreams of the world. There, he discovers his totemic self, and if he is open to it, he is transformed... Not all who undergo the rite will be so transformed, only those open to it.

This for example, is a cool idea. Especially if it comes with some form of debt or obligation that can be used as a plot hook.

thotd

 

[brvheart]

I tend to agree on Barbarian. To me it is one of those classes that are born, not made and you multiclass from not to. I could much easier see multicasting to Sorcerer although the casting while raging would still be problematic.

 

[TwoSix]

As always, the OOTS knows.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I tend to agree on Barbarian. To me it is one of those classes that are born, not made and you multiclass from not to. I could much easier see multicasting to Sorcerer although the casting while raging would still be problematic.

Having already provided a campaign justification for multiclassing into barbarian- a class based around a fighting style, with some (discardable) baked-in fluff about culture- I must confess I find multiclassing into a class described as being an innate manipulator of magic due to their blood-heritage is a bit more problematic.

Not impossible- all you need is a Highlander-style "quickening" storyline- but nonetheless more likely than multiclassing into barbarian (to me).