D&D 5E Legends & Lore 03.10.2014: Full-spellcasting Bard

[Zardnaar]

I disagree that they resemble powers more.

First, most spells didn't scale historically.

Second, many powers DID scale!

But finally, that's far from the only key marker concerning spells. I listed a whole bunch of things that serve to distinguish spells from other things in the game.



It's not "a lot" less, and you get very few at-wills, and they don't really scale (not nearly the same way as powers) and they become more and more useless at higher levels. They are much more similar to....spells.



They have much much more in common with the spells from the TSR era of spells than they do with the 4e era of powers. And I've made that comparison already. I keep asking you, and ForeverSlayer, to break down a list of common spells from 5e and compare them to common powers from 4e and show how they are more similar to those powers than they are to prior versions of those spells. You've yet to do it - again, if your claim has merit, why not back it up'?

Because it is to much work and you will not likely accept it anyway. To put it more simply then it is different, has to many things from 4E in it and in this context different= bad.

 

[EnglishLanguage]

To put it more simply then it is different, has to many things from 4E in it and in this context different= bad.

Here's the things I've heard D&DNext be condemned for...

"It's too much like 1e"
"It's not enough like 1e"
"It's too much like 2e"
"It's not enough like 2e"
"It's too much like 3.x"
"It's not enough like 3.x"
"It's too much like 4e"
"It's not enough like 4e"

Arguably, if you're seeing too much 4e in Next, chances are you're actively looking for it, because I've yet to find anything that I can solidly say is from 4e.

 

[Hussar]

Something I wish they would do for bards is lean heavily on the Truenamer ideas in 3e. Would seem to give all the flavour without bard spells being like wizard or cleric spells.

 

[GMMichael]

What do you think about it?

I think that WotC is coming close to abusing my invitations to steal freely from Modos RPG. I mean, first they want to make it modular, then they take out saves (fort, reflex and will) in favor of ability checks, and then this:

A bard can inspire a creature with a performance or speech, using natural and trained leadership abilities to help others achieve greatness. The affected creature gains a d6 that it can add to any check, attack, or saving throw. The nice thing about this mechanic is its flexibility. Bardic Inspiration can be applied to any situation a party faces, and allowing the recipient character to determine how it is used helps to build the narrative component of a game. (emphasis added)

Well, these bonuses are called hero points, and I first used them here.

I guess, really, it's a good thing: the closer D&D 5 comes to mimicking my system is the more that anyone can use something similar to D&D 5 for free (Modos RPG is released on the grounds that anyone can use AND reproduce the rules so long as a certain author gets credit).

Full disclosure:
[sblock]
D&D actually has in its history a "variant" game mechanic similar to Modos RPG's hero points that might have been the inspiration for Pathfinder's hero points (the optional rule): Action Points. An Action Point is the opportunity to bump up any roll, take a special action, or improve a feat. These are awarded when a character gains levels, and it seems that gaining levels is the primary means of gaining more. If these evolved into Pathfinder's Hero Points, the bonus to a roll that came from action points (amount of bonus depended on level) became a static bonus, but players still had the option to use hero points for other purposes. In Modos RPG, a hero point is detached from Pathfinder's use of representing heroism or dumb luck: these points are a daily power that grants a 1d6 bonus, and by using them to reinforce your character theme, a PC molds his own special abilities through the tactical use of hero points. It looks like D&D 5's bard-points are a hero point that can be awarded to other players - but I wouldn't be surprised if the bard could use them for his own rolls as well.[/sblock]

 

[GSHamster]

They have much much more in common with the spells from the TSR era of spells than they do with the 4e era of powers. And I've made that comparison already. I keep asking you, and ForeverSlayer, to break down a list of common spells from 5e and compare them to common powers from 4e and show how they are more similar to those powers than they are to prior versions of those spells. You've yet to do it - again, if your claim has merit, why not back it up'?

Here's how I see it. Let's say that you want a character to be able to do a "cool move":

Powers
- can only be used a limited number of times (per period)
- usually has an effect that cannot be replicated unless you know the power (so same class)

Mundane abilities
- can be used as often as possible, so long as triggering conditions are met
- can be attempted by anyone, abilities generally just make you more proficient

Pretty much the only mundane "power" that has been widely accepted by the player base is Barbarian Rage. Every other "power" must be magic in origin, or people complain.

The thing is that "can be used as often as possible, so long as triggering conditions are met" is insanely powerful from a balance point of view. So mundane abilities are relatively weak to balance, or the conditions become very hard to reliably set up. As a result, the "cool moves" tend to get given to the magic users, because the game can easily balance them by saying you can only do a "cool move" 2x per encounter or whatever.

As a result of this dynamic, if a designer wants to give a class some "cool moves" which are unique to that class, she is strongly pushed towards making that class a magic user.

 

[pemerton]

Playing a bard should feel like playing an instrument in a spontaneous jam session, all improvisation and diversity and surprising harmonies and confident dissonance. A sword strike here. A spell there. A charm here. A bluff right....now. And then they all explode into exactly what the Bard wants to happen: victory, and themselves enshrined in legend.

The closest PC I have ever seen to this is the chaos sorcerer in my 4e game: the sorcerer melee at-will (using his Rhythm Blade); sorcerer spells (including at-will AoE); invisibility from a ring plus drow Cloud of Darkness; and a +30-ish Bluff bonus. All that's missing is the charm.

Bards are musical because in ancient times, music was how knowledge was gathered and passed on. Bards were the keepers of an oral tradition in a time when history and learning wasn't written down. The music was just a mnemonic device for the bard

<snip>

a proper bard is not powerful because he is musical -- he is musical because he is powerful.

Good stuff.

 

[Mistwell]

Here's how I see it. Let's say that you want a character to be able to do a "cool move":

Powers
- can only be used a limited number of times (per period)
- usually has an effect that cannot be replicated unless you know the power (so same class)

Mundane abilities
- can be used as often as possible, so long as triggering conditions are met
- can be attempted by anyone, abilities generally just make you more proficient

Pretty much the only mundane "power" that has been widely accepted by the player base is Barbarian Rage. Every other "power" must be magic in origin, or people complain.

The thing is that "can be used as often as possible, so long as triggering conditions are met" is insanely powerful from a balance point of view. So mundane abilities are relatively weak to balance, or the conditions become very hard to reliably set up. As a result, the "cool moves" tend to get given to the magic users, because the game can easily balance them by saying you can only do a "cool move" 2x per encounter or whatever.

As a result of this dynamic, if a designer wants to give a class some "cool moves" which are unique to that class, she is strongly pushed towards making that class a magic user.

No class was "pushed" towards making that class a magic user, as all classes with spells right now already had spells in prior editions. If Barbarian suddenly were a spellcaster in this edition where they never were before, then this argument would make sense.

I keep asking for an actual example of a SPELL from a class (like a bard spell) being more similar to a POWER than it is to the same SPELL from a prior edition. Rage isn't any of those.

 

[TwoSix]

I keep asking for an actual example of a SPELL from a class (like a bard spell) being more similar to a POWER than it is to the same SPELL from a prior edition. Rage isn't any of those.

If you're asking for general examples from the audience, I've got nothin'. If you're asking for examples from specific individuals, you're probably not getting anything either.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm pondering spells that are most likely going to end up on the Bard spell list. By my estimation they most likely are:
6th Level
Arcane Gate
Greater Dispel Magic
Heal
Mass Suggestion

7th Level
Etherealness
Greater Restoration
Mass Invisibility
Resurrection (though Cleric niche protection might remove this one)
Regenerate
Plane Shift
Teleport

8th Level
Antimagic Field
Dominate Monster
Maze
Otto’s Irresistible Dance
Power Word Stun

9th Level
Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Mass Heal
Mass Hold Monster
True Resurrection

 

[Cybit]

Monks are sad that you do not have them on the "martial" classes list, btw.