D&D 5E Legends & Lore 03.10.2014: Full-spellcasting Bard

[TerraDave]

Here's the things I've heard D&DNext be condemned for...

"It's too much like 1e"
"It's not enough like 1e"
"It's too much like 2e"
"It's not enough like 2e"
"It's too much like 3.x"
"It's not enough like 3.x"
"It's too much like 4e"
"It's not enough like 4e"

Arguably, if you're seeing too much 4e in Next, chances are you're actively looking for it, because I've yet to find anything that I can solidly say is from 4e.

This, times a million points of damage on a miss.

 

[TerraDave]

I am not sure why, but feel obliged to say something about 1E casters.

8th & 9th level spells were unique features of Magic Users, but Clerics, Druids, and Illusionists obviously got up to level 7, and very few campaigns went past, or reached, the levels those spells would be relevant. They where full casters. Rangers and Paladins had some spell access. Monks had magical abilities. And even the thief and assassin could eventually try to use scrolls they normally couldn't, to give spell access. And of course Bards had spells.

Only the fighter was left out.

D&D has always been a high magic game.

 

[Gilbetron]

Well, these bonuses are called hero points, and I first used them here.

The concept has existed long before you came up with it. Fantasy Craft has them in Action Dice, and that system came out in 2009, D&D itself has had hero point variants. d20 itself had it in the 3E "expansion" Unearthed Arcana, and it is actually part of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm

 

[Arduin's]

Spells are not the same game space as powers. It's not the same style of play, and it's not even a very similar thing.

Strawman. Spells = magic. Controlling someone without using mundane means = magic. (unless you want to call it psionics)

DONE

 

[EnglishLanguage]

Strawman. Spells = magic. Controlling someone without using mundane means = magic. (unless you want to call it psionics)

DONE

Define "controlling someone"

 

[Mistwell]

Strawman. Spells = magic. Controlling someone without using mundane means = magic. (unless you want to call it psionics)

DONE

First, I can push you with my hands and it's not magical but it is controlling where you move, and some (many) powers did just that. The thing I was responding to was "powers" and not a sub-category of "non-mundane powers used to control someone". So, it doesn't have to be magic to control you, and we had lots of push mechanics in the game prior to 4th edition. If you want to complain about some specific powers without making it about powers in general, go on with your bad self, but that's a different topic than what I was responding to.

Second, Magic sword = magic. Magic potion = magic. Magic trap = magic. Calling something magic is not the same as calling something a spell.

So, not a strawman at all (and poor use of that phrase - I am absolutely replying to the argument being made and not an easier argument that was not made).

A spell involves a different game space, and play style, than simply "powers". Powers cover a great deal more territory than simply magic, and magic covers a great deal more territory than spells. Spells are far more specific. They cover mechanics for memorization, for spell slots, for research and study, for reading and deciphering them, for breaking concentration of them, for selling and creating them, for creating entirely new types of them not found in any game books, for saving throws from them, for imbuing them in magic items and making magic items with them, for resistance to them, for immunity to them, for Gods that grant them, and even for how different alignments interact with them.

This is a different space in the game rules, and a different style of play, than "powers". Spells are not a replacement for powers, and giving a class more spells is not the same (or even particularly similar) to giving a class powers. They can have one without the other, and the two are quite different from each other.

 

[GMMichael]

The concept has existed long before you came up with it. Fantasy Craft has them in Action Dice, and that system came out in 2009, D&D itself has had hero point variants. d20 itself had it in the 3E "expansion" Unearthed Arcana, and it is actually part of the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm

I'm guessing you didn't read my Spoiler.

At any rate, it's not too hard to imagine dice getting added to die rolls. What I would be interested to know: has a game ever given those bonus die regularly to players in order to let them tailor their own character's powers?

For example, when designing Modos RPG, I looked at some of the "special abilities" from D&D 3.0. Saving throw bonuses, smite evils, rage attacks - all amount, more or less, to limited-use die roll bonuses. Why can't a PC apply his bonuses wherever he wants them?

Any Modos character can...and now the 5ey Bard can too.

 

[Li Shenron]

After reading various discussions, I must admit the idea of a full-spellcasting Bard is slowly growing on me.

Of course we'll see how the final class looks like, e.g. if the spells known match the spells per day, or instead if the Bard gets high spells slots but only lower level spells known.

But generally speaking, given the persistent opinion that "Bards suck" across practically all editions, anything that makes the Bard more attractive or even "prestigious" cannot make me unhappy. I actually think that even if it ended up being slightly overpowered, most players would stay away from playing a Bard because they'll still believe it sucks.

Besides that, I'm still hoping one day to have the option of a Bard build based on Assurancetourix (for the English speakers Cacofonix ).

 

[Philousk]

Besides that, I'm still hoping one day to have the option of a Bard build based on Assurancetourix (for the English speakers Cacofonix ).

For once, I immediately understood the reference.

 

[pemerton]

I'm guessing you didn't read my Spoiler.

At any rate, it's not too hard to imagine dice getting added to die rolls. What I would be interested to know: has a game ever given those bonus die regularly to players in order to let them tailor their own character's powers?

Marvel Heroic RP. Perhaps other Cortex/Cortex Plus games too (MHRP is the only one I know).

I would say also Maelstrom Storytelling, although the comparison is a bit less clear-cut because Maelstrom doesn't use anything even approximating to task resolution - it is entirely scene-based conflict resolution, and more abstract in that respect than MHRP.