Cultural appropriation in writing?

[Zombie_Babies]

i am not at all sure that is true at all. Really you are just proposing the creation of a monoculture, the process of doing this requires the destruction of existing cultures (destroying good and bad elements). Can't think of anything more othering than telling people they need to stop being who they are.

Some elements will be lost, others will not. This is not a black and white situation. I also never once suggested than anyone would tell anyone else that part X of their culture had to die. This is evolution, not edict.

I know, you think it's impossible. Well, it's not. See, I'm an American. My family came to this country in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I'm Polish, German and Irish in heritage yet I do nothing specific to any of those cultures. I'm American and I celebrate American holidays, dress in an American manner, etc, etc. So, as you can see, this sort of thing happens all the time. It will take quite a bit of time to get to where I'd like to see us (longer than I'll be around) but it's possible. And nobody has to tell anyone else who to be.

Honestly, it's a strange assumption and I'm puzzled as to why it's the first place some of you have chosen to go.

You said the notion of culture needs to "die in a fire" to which I agreed (admittedly facetiously), the notion of cultures dying in a fire is inherently destructive and oppressive, very much in the maner of imperialism.

*sigh*

Death by fire - since you want to be so literal - doesn't have to be murder, you know. Don't blame me for your assumptions, please, and don't call me a liar when I correct your errors in interpreting what I've said. What you've decided to assign to me as my argument and my argument are two different things.

That you recant now and instead call for a blending of cultures into a single cohesive hegemony is on the face of it a positive step, but as Mr Bedrock points out who decides what cultural elements are worthy of inclusion? How does this blending of cultures proceed without becoming Assimilation?

I'm not recanting anything - I'm telling you that you made an assumption and that it was wrong while also trying to help you understand exactly what I am saying since I didn't get terribly into it with that first comment.

And, again, I simply can't understand why evolution never enters anyone's mind. It's happened, it's happening now and it will continue to happen. No one has to decide anything, no one has to have a gun held to their head while their holiday is erased from history. That's not something I've said, it's something y'ins have chosen to read into things I've said.

I was simply recommending that, as I believe my culture is sufficiently worthy, if you wish to abandon yours then mine can remain as our shared monoculture.

Evolution, not edict. No culture has to go away completely, no one specific culture has to erase all others. This isn't a Highlander kind of thing, it's an English (language) kind of thing. I ... I honestly don't know how else to put it.

You do see that you're the one that's calling for a specific culture to dominate and replace all others and not me, right? You chose to assume that's what I meant, of course, and you're wrong. Am I getting anywhere or are we gonna be hung up on this Strawman forever?

PS as we are currently sharing thoughts on a forum dedicated to DnD, using a shared language, doesn't that imply the 'blending of cultures' is already happening anyway with no fiery death required?

Yes, it is happening. That doesn't mean that disparate cultures are a good thing, though. If, say, polio is going away for whatever reason does that make it a good thing? Nope. In other words, the event you cite says nothing about the problem I'm addressing.

And THANK GAWD that someone mentioned hyperbole. For Jeebus' sake ...

 

[Bedrockgames]

Zombie I an an American too.

what you are describing is not culture dying in a fire, just assimilation into an existing culture.

 

[Nellisir]

Zombie I an an American too.

what you are describing is not culture dying in a fire, just assimilation into an existing culture.

He said "the NOTION of culture" needs to die in a fire. Not cultures themselves. I suspect* you could compare his vision to one of ending racism (being "color-blind"), not ending races (committing genocide).

There's an entitlement argument to be made; that as a (probable) member of the ruling clique (white men) of the predominant/controlling culture of our times (USA! USA!) it's in Zombie's interests for the notion of culture to disappear, but that's not an argument I'm interested in having or supporting.

* I "suspect" because I haven't asked, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth. Y'all have crammed plenty in already, and half the time he's got a foot in there too.

 

[Bedrockgames]

He said "the NOTION of culture" needs to die in a fire. Not cultures themselves. I suspect* you could compare his vision to one of ending racism (being "color-blind"), not ending races (committing genocide).

There's an entitlement argument to be made; that as a (probable) member of the ruling clique (white men) of the predominant/controlling culture of our times (USA! USA!) it's in Zombie's interests for the notion of culture to disappear, but that's not an argument I'm interested in having or supporting.

* I "suspect" because I haven't asked, and I'm not going to put words in his mouth. Y'all have crammed plenty in already, and half the time he's got a foot in there too.

Again what is describing is assimilation, not the notion of culture dying in a fire. What he seems to be after is the existence of one, single culture. I don't know that that is possible or desireable.

 

[Nellisir]

Again what is describing is assimilation, not the notion of culture dying in a fire.

I'm just going by his original words.

What he seems to be after is the existence of one, single culture. I don't know that that is possible or desireable.

I don't think it's possible to have one culture, and I don't think it's desirable. As far as assimilation and the creation of a single culture...I dunno. If everyone was blind, would we still judge by skin color? Would we all be the same color? Maybe what he's intending to say is do what you want, just stop being territorial and arrogant about it.

 

[Nellisir]

This is a weirdly surreal discussion for me.

First of all, to restate the obvious, the notion of culture does not equal culture, anymore than the notion of a horse equals a horse. A notion is an idea or concept. He's talking about the idea of cultures, not a particular culture. It's meta.

Just because a "notion" or idea of something doesn't exist doesn't mean the thing itself doesn't exist. Calculus existed before the notion of calculus. I'm pretty sure gravity worked before Newton. Blind people don't see skin color; that doesn't mean they're literally transparent. Skin color still exists and has an effect (sunburn, for one), its just not perceptible and it ceases to be a means of division. There's a solid theory that a small percentage of people can perceive 4 primary colors, not 3 - they literally can see colors we have no conception (or notion) of (tetrachromacy).

Similarly, culture can still exist without the notion of culture; it just ceases to be a means of division. Forced cultural assimilation can't occur without a concept of culture. You wouldn't be forced to adopt a monoculture; you wouldn't be forced to do anything. All choices are equal. You can wear your kilt and your penis sheath and your sunhat/sombrero to temple, because who gives a hoot? If you've got the latest issue of National Geographic, you can starch up your lace and don your Breton bonnets with flair. Traditions aren't discarded, they're exchanged among people who desire them.

Is something lost? Sure. Concepts of exclusivity, superiority, and inferiority. The linkage between genetic inheritance and societal memes.

I go contra dancing. It's a traditional and popular form of couples dance. Like most couples dances, contra has a leading, or traditionally gentleman's, role, and a following, or traditionally ladies, role. But something that's become basically de rigueur in contra is what could be called death to the notion of gender roles. Does that mean no one leads and no one follows? No. It means dance whatever role you want to dance. Dance lead if you want. Dance the follow if you want. You don't need to pass a physical, just do whatever you enjoy. I generally dance lead, because that's what I've learned and dancing the follow role feels backwards (also the follow role usually spins more, which makes me nauseous), but I know men who and women who regularly dance either. Some couples switch back and forth during the dance.

Is the notion of culture blindness as realistic or possible? Probably not. Is it desirable? I have no idea. It's still a valid thought exercise.

 

[Zombie_Babies]

Zombie I an an American too.

what you are describing is not culture dying in a fire, just assimilation into an existing culture.

Bro, I'm not gonna play pedantic games with you. Someone pointed out hyperbole, I thanked them for it and that, my friend, should have been sufficient explanation for the whole 'die in a fire' thing you're so hung up on. You wanna keep telling me I'm saying things I'm not, that's cool. I mean, I won't respond but whatever floats your boat. I've explained myself enough times to be bored with repeating the same stuff over and over.

This conversation needs to die in a fir ... whoops, don't wanna get arrested cuz someone takes me too literally. *ahem* I do not intend to literally burn this conversation down. As it's an online thing I can't imagine how anyone would think it possible but stranger things have happened. Hm, I guess they could think I meant the people I'm discussing with? Well, I can assure you I don't know who they are, don't know where they live and haven't the faintest interest in finding out. They're safe. I also suppose someone could take it to mean the servers the board is hosted on. Well, again, I have no idea where they reside and don't care so they're also safe. Nothing will be literally burned, nothing will be literally harmed, nothing will be literally eradicated, nothing will literally be forced to become something else. Ok, my disclaimer is officially over. I hope.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I am not sure I understand what either of you are trying to say at this point then.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Bro, I'm not gonna play pedantic games with you. Someone pointed out hyperbole, I thanked them for it and that, my friend, should have been sufficient explanation for the whole 'die in a fire' thing you're so hung up on. You wanna keep telling me I'm saying things I'm not, that's cool. I mean, I won't respond but whatever floats your boat. I've explained myself enough times to be bored with repeating the same stuff over and over.

.

I am not trying to play pedantic games either, just trying to understand your position. Sorry if ocmes off as me putting words into your mouth, that isn't my intent.

 

[Nellisir]

I am not sure I understand what either of you are trying to say at this point then.

Yeah, that's why this seems surreal. I don't understand why it's not perfectly clear that a thing is different from the idea of that thing, or that those ideas change or disappear all the time.

I'm not knocking you; there's just apparently a disconnect that I can't see at all.