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How many hit points do you have?

In your D&D game, how much does a character know about his own hit points (his total, how much d


This is part of why D&D feels like a heroic fantasy game to me -- you are playing people who do not die from being hit by dudes swinging swords at them. Normal people die when they are hit with a sword, sure. You are not playing the role of a normal person, you are playing the role of a fantasy hero, and part of what that means is that you can survive getting hit with a sword.
I wish I had better statistics on this, but I'm pretty sure that most normal people don't die when they get hit with a sword. In game terms, it's just a low damage roll (1-4 on the d6), but whenever they release data on terror attacks or actual combats, you always get a lot more people who are just wounded rather than killed.
 

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Hussar

Legend
This is part of why D&D feels like a heroic fantasy game to me -- you are playing people who do not die from being hit by dudes swinging swords at them. Normal people die when they are hit with a sword, sure. You are not playing the role of a normal person, you are playing the role of a fantasy hero, and part of what that means is that you can survive getting hit with a sword.

That is because when a fantasy hero gets hit with a sword, they turn that potentially lethal blow -- a blow that would kill any normal person -- into something lighter. It might not be much -- a cut, a graze, a scrape, a nick, a "flesh wound." Being a fantasy hero means being superhuman, being able to take a slice with a blade without falling to pieces.

I like that, because it makes D&D feel like a game of fantasy heroics. That's part of what HP functions as for me -- a genre mechanic. It's pulpy. It's unrealistic in the best way. In the story, your fantasy hero looks at the legion of town guards with blades flashing in the moonlight and knows that they can get out of this (though maybe not without a few cuts and bruises). As a player, you look at 4 1st-level guards armed with longswords, and your own HP total, and you know that even if they all hit and deal max damage, you aren't going down. You and your character are thinking the same thing. Roleplaying!.

But, hang on. Are you saying that because I have more HP, I actually change the outcome of an attack? As in I deliberately change reality so that your strong hit is now just a graze?

Or is it the fact that I have X HP left means that no attack which deals less than X is actually a strong hit?

I dunno about your character, but mine is thinking that a sword through the spleen is a sword through the spleen and it's going to kill me. Me, the player is thinking, "Hey, I've got lots of HP, I got this."

/snip



Which is fine, too. Personally, I find that diminishes my feeling of high adventure, because then what my character feels and what I feel are in conflict, rather than in harmony as representing heroic fantasy heroes. I feel like a dude with Asperger's at a party: always aware of the rules on display, never able to just feel them. And that's less fun for me.

Others ain't got that hang-up, though.

At what point is your character thinking, "Hey, if one of those town guards stabs me in the kidney, I'll just walk it off"?

To me, the character is worried about getting stabbed in the kidney and is trying his best to not have that happen. The player, OTOH, is looking at his HP total and knows that he can get into this fight without dying (most likely). The things your character and the player are thinking have never been in sync.
 

Hussar

Legend
I wish I had better statistics on this, but I'm pretty sure that most normal people don't die when they get hit with a sword. In game terms, it's just a low damage roll (1-4 on the d6), but whenever they release data on terror attacks or actual combats, you always get a lot more people who are just wounded rather than killed.

Oh sure. But, then again, what usually happens when someone is wounded? They fall down. Most people who are wounded are only stabbed once or twice. And very few times by someone who is trained in using a sword.

Very, very few times is someone stabbed eight or ten times and then keeps walking around afterward as if nothing happened. Which is what happens in HP.

Let me put it this way. Tell me how you can do exactly 1 HP of damage (note it has to be lethal damage, because it can potentially kill something) that can be healed by anyone in one day. There, no outside interference. No magic. What does 1 HP of damage look like? After all, it's objective, according to you, so, it has to look like something. What differentiates it from 2 HP of damage, which is twice as deadly. Or 50 points of damage?
 

I wish I had better statistics on this, but I'm pretty sure that most normal people don't die when they get hit with a sword. In game terms, it's just a low damage roll (1-4 on the d6), but whenever they release data on terror attacks or actual combats, you always get a lot more people who are just wounded rather than killed.

You have to be thinking this due to your exposure to very recent history which is tainted by the march of modern medicine; the advent of penicillin to treat infection (post WWI), the development and advancement of field triage protocols, and the advancement of surgical techniques, tools, and technology.

Real, lethal martial combat without modern medicine, even dark/middle ages embedded with high fantasy conceits, would be a meat (not HP) grinder without plot protection (HP). People would die primarily due to vasovagal response and/or generic loss of consciousness through sudden loss of blood pressure due to a rapid blood loss. Then its coup de gracie. I've suffered dozens of traumatic soft tissue injuries and bone breaks. The body responds with all manner of impairing terribleness (vasovagal response) even if you aren't anywhere near threatened with death; lightheadedness, nausea/vertigo (possibly inducing vomiting), extreme cold/hot accompanied by massive perspiration, weakness, tunnel vision, and straight-up feinting. Its awful.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You have to be thinking this due to your exposure to very recent history which is tainted by the march of modern medicine; the advent of penicillin to treat infection (post WWI), the development and advancement of field triage protocols, and the advancement of surgical techniques, tools, and technology.

Arguably D&D has more advanced medicine than the modern world by a wide margin.

Real, lethal martial combat without modern medicine, even dark/middle ages embedded with high fantasy conceits, would be a meat (not HP) grinder without plot protection (HP). People would die primarily due to vasovagal response and/or generic loss of consciousness through sudden loss of blood pressure due to a rapid blood loss. Then its coup de gracie. I've suffered dozens of traumatic soft tissue injuries and bone breaks. The body responds with all manner of impairing terribleness (vasovagal response) even if you aren't anywhere near threatened with death; lightheadedness, nausea/vertigo (possibly inducing vomiting), extreme cold/hot accompanied by massive perspiration, weakness, tunnel vision, and straight-up feinting. Its awful.

Maybe so. But there are also stories of people keeping on despite unimaginably horrific injuries - Hugh Glass comes to mind for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Glass or the infamous 1986 FBI bloodbath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout. Maybe some people just have more hits points than we do.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
But, hang on. Are you saying that because I have more HP, I actually change the outcome of an attack? As in I deliberately change reality so that your strong hit is now just a graze?

This is pretty much the case with hit points since the beginning. The PC doesn't have more meat - he has more skill. And the attack that would skewer a less experienced and skilled combatant (that 8 hit points of damage from an orc's blow that would kill a greenhorn) is little more than a graze to the well-seasoned warrior. This explanation has been around for over 30 years.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
But, hang on. Are you saying that because I have more HP, I actually change the outcome of an attack? As in I deliberately change reality so that your strong hit is now just a graze?

"Change reality" is a weird way to put it. If I am the dude with 100 HP and a normal town guardsguy is the dude with the 1d8 longsword, I know that no hit from this amateur is going to drop me, in-character and out. I'll still notice it -- I'll feel that sting for a while (this would be the distinction between a hit and a miss). If am the dude with 4/100 HP and that normal guard still has that 1d8 longsword, I know that I'm tired, I'm injured, I'm beaten down, and maybe I don't have the energy left to dodge that sword. That doesn't change reality, that just IS the reality. Either way, damage is a thing that happens in the fiction that my character notices and that I as a player also notice. It's not just a metagame construct for me.

Or is it the fact that I have X HP left means that no attack which deals less than X is actually a strong hit?

That feels about right. I mean, the guard is going to swing as strong as he ever would, but if I'm at 100 HP, there's zero chance of that guard doing what he set out to do (ie, stab and kill me). At 4 HP, there's a much better chance of that happening.

I dunno about your character, but mine is thinking that a sword through the spleen is a sword through the spleen and it's going to kill me. Me, the player is thinking, "Hey, I've got lots of HP, I got this."

A sword through the spleen doesn't happen for me when you've still got lots of HP. Well, maybe if I was doing some sort of wahoo hyper-violence style of D&D where guys could keep fighting with their organs pierced and limbs hanging around by threads or somesuch. But a hit for 8 damage doesn't hit the spleen of the 100 HP man. It might hit the spleen of the 4 HP man.

At what point is your character thinking, "Hey, if one of those town guards stabs me in the kidney, I'll just walk it off"?

Unless I'm doing wahoo ultraviolence, that's not usually the thought.

It's usually more like he's thinking: "None of these goobers could stab me in the kidney if they tried."

If one hits for damage, maybe that's a solid slice through your bellyfat, or a cut to your arm as you lower it to swat aside this guy's attack. They TRIED to stab this fantasy hero in the kidney, but they're just not skilled enough to do that, at least without wearing him down first.

To me, the character is worried about getting stabbed in the kidney and is trying his best to not have that happen. The player, OTOH, is looking at his HP total and knows that he can get into this fight without dying (most likely). The things your character and the player are thinking have never been in sync.

It's maybe because I'm from a theater background, but the things my character and I are thinking are often in sync. In fact, the more this happens, the better, and the less often I have to ponder the mysteries of the metagame, the better. It's part of why I play D&D -- to pretend to be a fantasy character for a few hours. If I look at my HP total and know that these guys can't kill me, my character looks at how skilled he is and how weak they are and knows that they can't stab him in the kidney because he is a big fantasy hero, too.
 

Oh sure. But, then again, what usually happens when someone is wounded? They fall down. Most people who are wounded are only stabbed once or twice. And very few times by someone who is trained in using a sword.

Very, very few times is someone stabbed eight or ten times and then keeps walking around afterward as if nothing happened. Which is what happens in HP.
To paraphrase Gygax, even Conan wore a shirt of mail in battle.

What it means is that the rules of the game must be most suited toward explaining the things that happen most often. Certainly, it's not very realistic for someone with, say, 100 hit points to just stand there and get run through with a sword for 5 damage at a go, until eventually keeling over a few minutes later. But that's also a situation which is highly unlikely to occur within the game, so it's no wonder that the rules don't make a ton of sense for it!

The common situation, which the rules are actually designed for, have anyone with a significant number of hit points also likely to be wearing heavy armor! If you hit someone for 10, and that person is only down to 90%, then most of the "stopping power" of your attack was drained into the armor. They covered one hole in the rules by hiding it under a different, tangentially-related rule! (Decades later, World of Warcraft proved that this design philosophy was still around - they didn't want Tauren warriors to be so much tougher than other warriors that it would be unbalanced, but they also didn't want a giant minotaur-person to feel squishy, so they just conveniently prevented Tauren from playing any class that was restricted to light armor.)

So yes, these drastically simplified rules fall apart in situations that are unlikely to occur. Fortunately, it's easy to ignore those situations, because they pretty much never happen. (And if you feel like you need rules for the unlikely even that someone with 100 hit points is attacked while naked, then that's a perfect place for the DM to interject with a house rule; I recommend that any attack with an edged weapon against an unarmored humanoid is automatically a critical hit.)


You have to be thinking this due to your exposure to very recent history which is tainted by the march of modern medicine; the advent of penicillin to treat infection (post WWI), the development and advancement of field triage protocols, and the advancement of surgical techniques, tools, and technology.
I actually just meant during combat. If someone hacks at you with a cleaver, you might bleed out in a few minutes/hours or die from infection in a few days, but you're still alive for the duration of combat. Especially in a game of fantasy heroes, where the two conditions are "up" or "down", the natural outcome of being hit with a weapon is that you're still "up" for now. (Plus, see above, concerning the likelihood that you are wearing armor. If you're concerned with modeling non-heroic types, then I believe they call for a morale check when you're wounded or at a certain percentage.)

As a bit of an aside, fantasy settings are kind of a strange place. You want it to look like pseudo-medieval Europe, but then you can't make it too gritty, or else it becomes a place you would want to escape from rather than to. So you end up with this weird place that has knights and castles and dragons, but also gender equality and (most relevant here) modern hygiene practices.

Wherever you can't explain away something nasty, you just have a convenient herb that happens to disinfect wounds or whatever. (What else could possibly be in a healer's kit?) At least, that's what makes most sense to me. As unrealistic as it may seem, we're mostly dealing with a sort of medieval theme park rather than actual history. Think Velgarth, if you want to see this played straight.
 

Hussar

Legend
Arguably D&D has more advanced medicine than the modern world by a wide margin.



Maybe so. But there are also stories of people keeping on despite unimaginably horrific injuries - Hugh Glass comes to mind for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Glass or the infamous 1986 FBI bloodbath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout. Maybe some people just have more hits points than we do.

But, the reason that those stories are famous is because they are the outliers, not the norm. Yes, there are examples of people suffering horrific injury and keeping on going.

Where I'm drawing a blank is the individual who does it twice. Unlike a D&D PC, who suffers horrific injury on a virtually daily basis, the examples you want to point to are generally things that happen once in a lifetime. And, more often than not, it's the last even of most lifetimes.

This is pretty much the case with hit points since the beginning. The PC doesn't have more meat - he has more skill. And the attack that would skewer a less experienced and skilled combatant (that 8 hit points of damage from an orc's blow that would kill a greenhorn) is little more than a graze to the well-seasoned warrior. This explanation has been around for over 30 years.

But, this isn't anything the PC is doing. Unless you believe that my wizard is a better melee fighter than a trained warrior. The explanation that has been around for so long is that the target with lots of hit points will never suffer a strong blow. A strong blow doesn't change depending on what I'm stabbing. A strong blow is a strong blow. The difference is that I will never actually LAND a strong blow on a high HP target.

"Change reality" is a weird way to put it. If I am the dude with 100 HP and a normal town guardsguy is the dude with the 1d8 longsword, I know that no hit from this amateur is going to drop me, in-character and out. I'll still notice it -- I'll feel that sting for a while (this would be the distinction between a hit and a miss). If am the dude with 4/100 HP and that normal guard still has that 1d8 longsword, I know that I'm tired, I'm injured, I'm beaten down, and maybe I don't have the energy left to dodge that sword. That doesn't change reality, that just IS the reality. Either way, damage is a thing that happens in the fiction that my character notices and that I as a player also notice. It's not just a metagame construct for me.

You actually think that the character knows these things? I certainly would never think that someone sticking a sword in my chest wouldn't kill me. What I do know, as a high level character, is that I can avoid the clumsy blows of the low level opponent. Fair enough. But, I know that regardless of how many HP I have.

That feels about right. I mean, the guard is going to swing as strong as he ever would, but if I'm at 100 HP, there's zero chance of that guard doing what he set out to do (ie, stab and kill me). At 4 HP, there's a much better chance of that happening.



A sword through the spleen doesn't happen for me when you've still got lots of HP. Well, maybe if I was doing some sort of wahoo hyper-violence style of D&D where guys could keep fighting with their organs pierced and limbs hanging around by threads or somesuch. But a hit for 8 damage doesn't hit the spleen of the 100 HP man. It might hit the spleen of the 4 HP man.

Exactly. This is precisely what I'm saying. But the character is in no way aware of this is he?

Unless I'm doing wahoo ultraviolence, that's not usually the thought.

It's usually more like he's thinking: "None of these goobers could stab me in the kidney if they tried."

If one hits for damage, maybe that's a solid slice through your bellyfat, or a cut to your arm as you lower it to swat aside this guy's attack. They TRIED to stab this fantasy hero in the kidney, but they're just not skilled enough to do that, at least without wearing him down first.



It's maybe because I'm from a theater background, but the things my character and I are thinking are often in sync. In fact, the more this happens, the better, and the less often I have to ponder the mysteries of the metagame, the better. It's part of why I play D&D -- to pretend to be a fantasy character for a few hours. If I look at my HP total and know that these guys can't kill me, my character looks at how skilled he is and how weak they are and knows that they can't stab him in the kidney because he is a big fantasy hero, too.

Wow, I never, ever think like that. My characters are afraid of getting stabbed at all times. I would never look at it from that perspective. Heck, "I'm a big fantasy hero" is, to me, so meta that it's completely out of character, AFAIC. Conan doesn't think to himself, "Well, I'm the protagonist of this story, so nothing can kill me", so, why would my fantasy character.

In fact, I'm trying to think of a fantasy hero who actually would think that way and I'm really drawing a blank.
 

pemerton

Legend
where that leads is that there must be a separate set of rules in the reality the characters live in. That is, the characters in the world experience fatigue and wounds in some fashion, and they develop an understanding of how health and harm work. If that understanding does not reflect what is going on in the mechanics, it begs the question of what exactly is going on in their experience.

Do we assume that they live in a realistic world where people sometimes get an eye poked out or gangrene in their wounds, but that this reality simply never interacts with the hp system (i.e. those outcomes only occur through DM 'fiat'). Or do they live in a Hollywood world where no one of consequence ever gets hurt, but they lack the self-awareness to understand that?
Both (a) and (b). They don't get hurt, but they don't notice because they are "genre blind". (They likewise don't notice that they are at the centre of the most dramatic events in the world.)

But NPCs get hurt, just not via action resolution mechanics. When the PCs in my 4e game met some NPCs who had been injured in battle (including having severed or maimed limbs, blinded etc) they cast Remove Affliction to help them. (Hit point recovery can't help with that sort of thing - however reinvigorated you are, your eyes won't grow back!)

that creates a rather large new problem.

Because now, if your ranger PC goes out and bags a deer without rolling an attack, the next time he sneaks up on an enemy, he says "Oh, I shoot the guy's horse." The DM asks him to roll an attack and damage (which won't kill it), but the player says "No, the horse is just dead now, that's how I do things apparently."
This is why we have the phrase "say yes or roll the dice". If the GM doesn't say yes in relation to the horse as s/he did in relation to the deer, the player has to roll the dice.

I believe that [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] has also been making this same point upthread when he says that the action resolution mechanics, including hit points, are not for modelling the gameworld but for resolving fantasy action adventures.
 

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