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D&D 5E 5E: A chiropractic adjustment for D&D (and why I'm very hopeful)

Mercurius

Legend
A thought occurred to me (yes, one actually did). Most editions of D&D have followed a pattern of "start classic and relatively simple, then go further and further outward, both in complexity and diversity of ideas." This isn't an exact formula, but it seems to generally hold true. You start with the core game, traditional classes and races, then gradually--through supplementation--you expand the oeuvre to include different styles of fantasy and options for rules variations, in a kind of ripple effect.

Now it may be that one of the main reasons 4E was so controversial is that it didn't take this approach. It started with a lot of variations on traditional fantasy and D&D--both in terms of fluff and crunch--and then had to back-track a bit to include some of the traditional aspects of the game. In other words, it got off on the "wrong" foot, or at least a foot that cleaved too far from expectations and tradition.

The designers of 5E seem well aware of this, and seem to be giving D&D a chiropractic adjustment across the board, from a simpler core rule set to inclusion of all of the major classes and races in the PHB, to the Sundering of the Forgotten Realms which may be bringing the Realms back to a more Gray Boxy feel.

This isn't mere nostalgia, I think. Certainly that has some bearing on design, especially considering the larger number of long-time D&D players in their 30s and up who grew up on AD&D or some variation of the Basic game. It seems like a clear and very intelligent design choice. While I for one enjoyed 4E, it always felt like a "different approach" to D&D, with a more gonzo 21st century Generation Warcraft feel to it. There is nothing wrong with this approach, but it would probably be best presented as a modular option, a variant approach that can be taken in specific campaigns. To put it another way, if you can only serve one fruit then it is probably best to stick with apples, oranges, or bananas rather than go straight to kiwis or guava. I like kiwis and guava, but they're a more specific--and less universally enjoyed--flavor than "the big three fruits."

With 5E, the designers seem to be both "adjusting" the game back to its core traditions, but also providing variant streams that can be taken in a toolbox galore style. Or so I hope. It won't "out 4E 4E"--or OD&D or 3.5, etc--but it does seem to be covering both important polarities in as strong a manner as possible: presenting a relatively simple, traditional D&D game that can be customized in as many ways as individual DMs can dream up--and providing the tools to do so.

Best of both worlds, really.

Addendum: There is no way around the fact that 5E won't be for everyone. That's OK. But from what I've gathered, most of the criticisms of the game will be small (e.g. Why doesn't the PHB include my favorite sub-sub-race or spell?) and/or misplaced (e.g. why isn't 5E more like X edition?). As the saying goes, you can't please everyone all of the time - but with 5E, I'm thinking they've done as good a job as humanly possible with pleasing as many people as they can, most of the time. To be honest, in a way I'm rather curious as to what the major criticisms will be - both in the community as a whole, and for myself. We gamers are an ornery bunch :p
 
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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
On a slightly similar note, something that happened with 4E is that WotC improved in its mastery of the 4E rules over the life of the edition. With 3.xE, their rules-fu radically declined to the point where I considered the rulings of the certain members of CharOp crowd on the WotC boards or certain posters here at ENWorld as being far more authoritative than official WotC opinions.

Hopefully by starting with a simpler base and adding modules to it, 5E will see in a 4E-like growth in system mastery by WotC and not what happened with 3.xE (or, arguably, 1E and especially 2E).
 

Raith5

Adventurer
While I for one enjoyed 4E, it always felt like a "different approach" to D&D, with a more gonzo 21st century Generation Warcraft feel to it. There is nothing wrong with this approach, but it would probably be best presented as a modular option, a variant approach that can be taken in specific campaigns.

I also (still) enjoy 4E. While I certainly think that 4E had significant differences with preceding editions, I cant help but think that these differences have sometimes taken on exaggerated and miscast proportions as time has gone on. I think 4E mechanics largely backed up long standing practices in D&D gaming rather than completely invented new ones. While I am not fan of everything in 4th ed I liked the mechanical support for having fighters defend, rogues attacking defences other than AC, clerics assumed as healers, etc. While I think roles were initially cast in too strict terms, I did really like the synergistic play that stemmed from different PCs having different strengths and weaknesses cashed out in mechanical terms.

Despite some OTT elements I think it is right to value the achievements of 4E. After playing D&D since Moldvay box set I was looking for something like 4th ed.

So I certainly hope the main elements are able to drawn into the 5E mix - even if they are done so in a more measured and subdued manner. It exciting to see a new edition coming out at any rate.
 

Ramaster

Adventurer
This is all well and good (I agree with most of it), but we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. The hard fact is that the final rules are not here yet and it is way too early to start making such defining statements about the game.

Yes, most people agree that what we have seen thus far is quite good, but it is just such a TINY amount of what it's there to see that rushing in to conclusions is a bit pointless.

Let's just hope that fighters have something else to do apart from "basic attacks", rogues are interesting to play mechanics-wise, clerics are diverse enough depending on their domain and wizards are cool but not overpowered.
 

Let's just hope that fighters have something else to do apart from "basic attacks", rogues are interesting to play mechanics-wise, clerics are diverse enough depending on their domain and wizards are cool but not overpowered.

More importantly, let's hope that all the other classes validate their own existence on a basic level and don't seem like "spins" on these, or themed-but-lesser versions.
 

Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
I also (still) enjoy 4E. While I certainly think that 4E had significant differences with preceding editions, I cant help but think that these differences have sometimes taken on exaggerated and miscast proportions as time has gone on. I think 4E mechanics largely backed up long standing practices in D&D gaming rather than completely invented new ones. While I am not fan of everything in 4th ed I liked the mechanical support for having fighters defend, rogues attacking defences other than AC, clerics assumed as healers, etc. While I think roles were initially cast in too strict terms, I did really like the synergistic play that stemmed from different PCs having different strengths and weaknesses cashed out in mechanical terms.

Despite some OTT elements I think it is right to value the achievements of 4E. After playing D&D since Moldvay box set I was looking for something like 4th ed.

So I certainly hope the main elements are able to drawn into the 5E mix - even if they are done so in a more measured and subdued manner. It exciting to see a new edition coming out at any rate.

Yeah, 4E was needed, just as 3.xE was.

AD&D never asked the question, "Why do we do this this way?" in any sort of serious manner. The Gygaxian rule was make up some stuff that seems like fun... but ignore elegance, simplicity, or even what makes (logical) sense. Riffing off the chiropractic analogy, the end result was like saying, "It's fun spending your life as a hunchback with club feet!" Anyway, as Gary's later work showed, he really wasn't a very good game designer but he did catch lightning in a bottle with D&D.

3.xE really tried to ask "Why?" and did a good job, possibly too good. And 4E was very much a chiropractic adjustment for 3.xE that addressed most of the issues for DMs and some of the issues for players.

5E is interesting as it's seemingly a chiropractic adjustment to Gygaxian AD&D - basically an attempt to get AD&D "right" - as well as a reaction to, and adjustment of, the excessed of post-Gygaxian D&D. I still think of 5E more as AD&D3E rather than D&D5E. Hmmm, maybe it's not so much a chiropractic adjustment of AD&D but a piece of major surgery....
 
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GX.Sigma

Adventurer
5E is interesting as it's seemingly a chiropractic adjustment to Gygaxian AD&D - basically an attempt to get AD&D "right" - as well as a reaction to, and adjustment of, the excessed of post-Gygaxian D&D. I still think of 5E more as AD&D3E rather than D&D5E. Hmmm, maybe it's not so much a chiropractic adjustment of AD&D but a piece of major surgery....
The way I think of it, it's like a house.

Old D&D laid the foundation and built a cool little house. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't perfect, it had a lot of flaws, but it was awesome.
The later AD&D products built more stuff onto the house until it just couldn't stand anymore.
Then 3.x rebuilt the house, and again kept adding new additions and stacking more and more stuff on top until it just got ridiculous.
Then 4e tore down the house, and went off and built a totally different house.
Now 5e is trying to use all the lessons learned along the way, and go back to the original foundation and rebuild the original house better than it was before.
 
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Scrivener of Doom

Adventurer
The way I think of it, it's like a house.

Old D&D laid the foundation and built a cool little house. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't perfect, it had a lot of flaws, but it was awesome.
The later AD&D products built more stuff onto the house until it just couldn't stand anymore.
Then 3.x rebuilt the house, and again kept adding new additions and stacking more and more stuff on top until it just got ridiculous.
Then 4e tore down the house, and went off and built a totally different house.
Now 5e is trying to use all the lessons learned along the way, and go back to the original foundation and rebuild the original house better than it was before.

Yeah, that's an infinitely better analogy.

OD&D/AD&D had a lot going for them but good - elegant, considered, logical, insert other adjective of your choice - design was not part of the mix. (And, sadly, the desire to make 2E largely compatible with 1E meant that good design barely intruded in that edition as well.)

Nevertheless, Gygaxian D&D had a certain charm and I do think 5E is an attempt to capture that charm and, hopefully, provide it with a more solid structure.
 

Emirikol

Adventurer
The Atlas of D&D design is of fun, creativity, and paternalism. I love to imagine a writer of such a major invention as having to fight his instinct of what he feels is best, with what the larger audience desires, with just plain fun. The adjustment of the pillar of gaming is not to re-align the rules, so much as to release the intelligence, force, and matter that is contained of the Bigness of the Fellow Within. Historically, 1e could do no wring. 2e seemed a step 'somewhere new.' 3e was the high ego. At it's release, 4e seemed what would do it for it's time. Now that we're at 5e, the philosophy has not changed, but perhaps the audience has realized the practical aspects of tabletop gaming. There is no process that does not require time, as one of my predecessors stated in his timeless philosophies.

Yes, I've played since 1981. My innate intelligence will not suffer whatever they do, it is free flowing, as I have no subluxation complex in gaming. I just can't believe that it is still around (probably much the same way that my father can't believe that model trains still inspire his hobby friends).

I'm ready for 5e.

Jay Hafner, D.C. :)
- apologizing for the cheezy amalgam of philosophies of chiro & gaming
 

LostSoul

Adventurer
AD&D never asked the question, "Why do we do this this way?" in any sort of serious manner. The Gygaxian rule was make up some stuff that seems like fun... but ignore elegance, simplicity, or even what makes (logical) sense. Riffing off the chiropractic analogy, the end result was like saying, "It's fun spending your life as a hunchback with club feet!" Anyway, as Gary's later work showed, he really wasn't a very good game designer but he did catch lightning in a bottle with D&D.

Ouch! I don't think that's true. AD&D is a well-designed game. I'm pretty sure you can point to any "this" and get a reason for that mechanic. Like, I don't know, encumbrance: since you get XP for GP, and you can only carry so much, and how much you carry has an impact on how many wandering monsters you meet, then the encumbrance rules present the players with a choice.
 

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