D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Li Shenron]

Random has its place and it's not in stat generation or hit points.

Random has its place and that place is a game of D&D.

Or in more gentler words than yours, it depends who you ask. My first 5e PC is completely random except for the backstory which is written after the random generation and tries to put all the bits together: random name, random race, random class, random gender, random stats, random background, random spells, random class skills... so you clearly see where I stand.

Be glad that 5e gives you official options to completely avoid randomness in character creation and advancement, and to partially reduce randomness also during the game (e.g. damage, passive skills), but please try to sound less perentorial and judgemental. You badwrongfun is just as goodrightfun as my badwrongfun.

 

[Li Shenron]

Conversely, if they do matter, then what is the argument for allocating them in a random fashion across the different players?

Yeah... what's all this fuss about having "fun"?

Some people don't get the fun in football, so they just shouldn't play football. It doesn't mean football isn't fun, just it isn't fun for them. "I don't understand what is the point of all this efforts to bring a ball behind the line", believe me when I tell you I have heard this very sentence more than once in my life...

Some people don't get the fun in random, so they shouldn't play random. And they don't have to play random to still be able to play D&D, not anymore at least.

I don't have an "argument," since that implies I'm trying to persuade someone of something whereas stat generation is patently a playstyle preference. But I prefer rolling both as a player and as a DM because:

• I like rolling stats, and watching my players roll stats. It feels exciting and stimulating to me.
• I like being presented with an array of weird stats, and using that as inspiration to create an interesting, flawed, character.
• I like knowing that other players stats are probably different than mine. As a DM, I like watching players adapt creatively to their weird scores.
• Historically, I've found I can catch a lot of playstyle mismatches right out of the gate merely by asking a new player to roll stats and watching how they handle an outlier roll.

Having said this, I wish that 5E stats mattered less (or at least, differently) than they do--that's a mark against the edition in my opinion, and a clear mechanical mismatch with the random stat generation method. (Though admittedly levels 1-3 do make it easy enough to funnel out weak characters, DCC style. So there's that.)

I like all those points you listed.

However, are you sure that in 5e stats are supposed to matter less? Bounded accuracy has put a limit on how stats can effects rolls, but at the same time the designers have talked extensively about making the 6 abilities more central to the game than before.

 

[Thank Dog]

Or in more gentler words than yours, it depends who you ask. My first 5e PC is completely random except for the backstory which is written after the random generation and tries to put all the bits together: random name, random race, random class, random gender, random stats, random background, random spells, random class skills... so you clearly see where I stand.

Be glad that 5e gives you official options to completely avoid randomness in character creation and advancement, and to partially reduce randomness also during the game (e.g. damage, passive skills), but please try to sound less perentorial and judgemental. You badwrongfun is just as goodrightfun as my badwrongfun.

Are you an English Longbowman?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I am, as a person, incredibly unlucky when it comes to dice rolls. I'm the guy who whiffs all night long on attacks then finally manages to roll that one 20... on some essentially irrelevant skill check. When I have to randomly roll my characters, I opt for the suicide clause because playing a character that's all negative modifiers is a terrible experience. That's not role-playing, or roll-playing, that's a forced evening of humiliation. I say forced because there have been DMs who refuse to allow arrays or point-buy options. That's just the DM being a prick. Pure and simple. So it's literally a choice between suicide the character or stand up and leave because I rolled badly... and I do mean badly on stats. That's not fun. It's only fun for the other players as they get to point and laugh all night. Straight up screw that.

So yeah, rolling stats is a punishment for some. Utter, mind-boggling torture. It's usually the players who are personally very lucky screaming and crying and whinging about rolling their stats. I've watched players roll three 18s in a row... then they tell me to suck it up when I roll three 8s and nothing above a 12.

Random rolls have no place in determining stats or hit points. I mean honestly, it makes about as much sense as rolling the starting level for each character in the group.

Wow, there are so many things wrong with this post; where to start.

How about with the hyperbole. I very much doubt you roll stats with all negative modifiers. Forgive me if I lean towards the statistical probability rather than something that is pretty much impossible to occur (repeatedly and consistently rolling all stats with penalties). Your last sentence is also nothing but exaggerated hyperbole as well. One big giant false equivalency.

Next, let's move on to how your issues are a people problem, and not a rules or random stat rolling problem. If you have players that make fun of you for rolling a low stat? Those are dick players. Stop playing with them. That is not a rules issue at all, but a maturity issue with those you choose to associate with.

Moving on to a third issue, the DM having a style of play that you don't like doesn't make them a dick. Lots of people do prefer that style. Just because you don't doesn't make you better than them and them a prick. If you don't like their style, either DM a game yourself, or find another game. Again, this is not a rules problem, but a person problem.

To address another issue, having a PC with a low stat (or even a couple) isn't objectively "forced humiliation". Hey Robbie Wheeling, it's just a game. And yes, many people can and do have fun role-playing AND roll-playing their PCs even if they have a low stat or two. Again, this is a "you" problem and not a rules problem.

And finally, and I've mentioned this no less than two times already, that's not what punishment means. You are not being punished just because you didn't get your way. Seriously folks, look up what the word means before continuing to use it. And if you (general you) find yourself make the "Billy has a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!' argument, then you probably want to reevaluate...a lot of things. That's how kids act.

 

[Piratecat]

One of the most interesting stat generation ideas I've ever seen I heard about here on this board. Get everyone together at the table. Then everyone rolls six ability scores using 4d6 drop 1, and all of those scores go up on a whiteboard in numerical order (not as sets). Then - and this is the cool part for me - the players decide between themselves who gets what scores. They can take turns picking numbers, which are then crossed off the list of available options. They can agree to give one character higher scores and one character lower scores, but they'd need to decide that as a group. The DM just hangs out, eats a burger, and makes sure everyone thinks it's fair.

If you do this, I strongly suggest rolling two extra times, adding those to the mix, and removing the highest and lowest roll. You'll probably remove an 18, but no one wants to get saddled with the one accidentally rolled "3."

I like it because it allows for high rolls and low rolls, but everyone can decide for themselves who gets what.

 

[Zustiur]

For me, random stats belong in one-shot games, or other short term campaigns. Points buy or default array is for longer campaigns where the 'penalty' of rolling bad would last a long time.

Recently I came up with the idea of using 4d6 drop 1 a little differently -
All players roll their 6 stats.
All arrays are written on a piece of paper.
Any player may use any array from that page.
Multiple players may choose the same array if they want to.


Edit;
Also, what PirateCat said... while I was typing.
All this time we've known him as PirateCat, yet now I realize, he's really NinjaCat.

 

[Piratecat]

Zustiur, my suggestion is a little different (in that I'm suggesting breaking apart the arrays and using all the numbers), but I really like your option as well. That's cool, and perfectly fair.

 

[Chocolategravy]

reason #1: The most obvious reason why I disagree with the presented argument is that "punished" is being used incorrectly. *or as I call it, the "Jimmy got a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!"

And when you're playing encounters and 1 character has a 20 and hits 20% more often(0.5 -> 0.6) for almost 40% more damage(7.5 -> 9.5), is more than 50% more effective (3.75 dpr v 5.7 dpr) and drops 4 of the enemy compared to your 0 and you realize you contributed nothing and should have just surfed the web instead, guess who is having less fun? 5E gives you pretty much NO ability to customize your character, someone with an ability score advantage has a HUGE advantage, especially at low levels. We've had some pretty frustrated new players here who did feel like they were being punished. And some pretty confused returning players wondering where flanking went, but that would be a different thread.

 

[overgeeked]

Wow, there are so many things wrong with this post; where to start.

How about with the hyperbole. I very much doubt you roll stats with all negative modifiers. Forgive me if I lean towards the statistical probability rather than something that is pretty much impossible to occur (repeatedly and consistently rolling all stats with penalties). Your last sentence is also nothing but exaggerated hyperbole as well. One big giant false equivalency.

Note that's not what I actually said, so you're straw manning pretty hard there. I have rolled several characters with all negative stat modifiers. I never said all my characters, all the time. Not really a false equivalency at all, actually. If you're going to randomly roll just how strong, dextrous, durable, smart, wise, and charming your character is... along with how much punishment they can take before dying, how is that functionally that different than rolling their literal power level?

Next, let's move on to how your issues are a people problem, and not a rules or random stat rolling problem. If you have players that make fun of you for rolling a low stat? Those are dick players. Stop playing with them. That is not a rules issue at all, but a maturity issue with those you choose to associate with.

Yes, the issue is partially dick players, granted. But I'm only in that situation due to my personal bad luck with rolling dice and DMs insisting on random rolled stats and refusing to allow point-buy or arrays, which is an option in the rules.

Moving on to a third issue, the DM having a style of play that you don't like doesn't make them a dick. Lots of people do prefer that style. Just because you don't doesn't make you better than them and them a prick. If you don't like their style, either DM a game yourself, or find another game. Again, this is not a rules problem, but a person problem.

It's not the general style of play or running the game, simply and only the insistence on randomly rolled stats. It's a dick move, pure and simple. Instead of the characters starting with roughly the same options (excepting for play style and personal preferences, of course), you intentionally start the game with a sometimes huge imbalance between the characters, for no other reason than it's "fun" to roll dice. Well, not so much. It's a game, it's supposed to be roughly balanced and fun, yet the default for many is to start off as imbalanced as possible (i.e. random rolled stats). Yes, this is partially a gamer culture and table culture issue, but it wouldn't be a gamer and table culture issue if this weren't the presumed default for so long and still lingered in the books to this day. Excise it entirely from the rules and be done.

To address another issue, having a PC with a low stat (or even a couple) isn't objectively "forced humiliation". Hey Robbie Wheeling, it's just a game. And yes, many people can and do have fun role-playing AND roll-playing their PCs even if they have a low stat or two. Again, this is a "you" problem and not a rules problem.

I wouldn't call a game of War fun if I only got 1/4 of the deck to start whilst my opponent received 3/4. I will opt out of a game of chess where I start with 1/2 my pieces already gone. I am also not a fan of playing an RPG where some players are catered to at the expense of other players. Yeah, that's all me. I guess I'm a prick for wanting a fair and roughly balanced game.

And finally, and I've mentioned this no less than two times already, that's not what punishment means. You are not being punished just because you didn't get your way. Seriously folks, look up what the word means before continuing to use it. And if you (general you) find yourself make the "Billy has a bigger piece of cake than me, not fair!' argument, then you probably want to reevaluate...a lot of things. That's how kids act.

Real life's already not fair, and there's nothing we can do about that. Yep. Here's me accepting that on a silver platter. But are you honestly so ridden hard and put away wet that you cannot accept any fairness in a game? You do know that it's a game and not actually, you know, real life, right? That seems rather borked to me. "Life's not fair so your games can't be fair either!" Really. That's a ridiculous attitude to take.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Real life's already not fair, and there's nothing we can do about that. Yep. Here's me accepting that on a silver platter. But are you honestly so ridden hard and put away wet that you cannot accept any fairness in a game? You do know that it's a game and not actually, you know, real life, right? That seems rather borked to me. "Life's not fair so your games can't be fair either!" Really. That's a ridiculous attitude to take.

I'm going to skip everything else you said above this because it again falls under either a player issue (don't game with dicks or be a dick yourself), or "sorry, but I don't believe you've frequently rolled 4d6 drop lowest and ended up with every stat at a penalty. Especially since you've shown that you're more than willing to resort to exaggerated hyperbole and false equivalencies. And yes, it's a HUGE false equivalency to equate the power difference between a level 1 and level 2 PC with a PC that has an extra +1 to an ability somewhere.

But this part here, that I left in your quote? Again, you keep using words that don't mean what you think they mean. It's totally fair, because everyone is offered the same opportunity. That's what fairness is. Just because everyone doesn't get the exact same result doesn't mean it's not fair or that it's punishment. Just like it's not punishment or unfairness if you put your money in an IRA and your neighbor happened to get a bigger return on his put options. Everyone has the same choices.

And you get extra irony points for accusing me of making a strawman when that's exactly what you just did in this quoted part above.