D&D 5E Array v 4d6: Punishment? Or overlooked data

[Stalker0]

I'm firmly in the point buy camp myself.

I love me some random results....but I like randomness that has a single, one time aspect.

I still remember the time my character used all of these special magical ingredients to hurl a 12d6 fireball....in which I rolled 15 damage....half because he saved....-5 for fire resistance....yep I did 2 damage on a fireball! That was hilarious, we still talk about it to this day.

But having a few rolls affect every other roll that character makes for the rest of the game...its too much imo.

 

[pemerton]

Honestly, a good GM can work around any stat.

Solution to a below-par roll: roll again. Pretty standard practice, lets those who don't want to be lame move forward

the most freeing experience I ever had was when I pick stats I wanted without touching d6's or point buy

<snip>

Its not like it was un fair to anyone, I had far from the best stats in the game, I just didn't see the reason to lie about it

I like GMforPowergamers's solution to this problem - if stats (high or low) really don't matter, then pick them.

Conversely, if they do matter, then what is the argument for allocating them in a random fashion across the different players?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Conversely, if they do matter, then what is the argument for allocating them in a random fashion across the different players?

yup that is about it...

 

[dd.stevenson]

Conversely, if they do matter, then what is the argument for allocating them in a random fashion across the different players?

I don't have an "argument," since that implies I'm trying to persuade someone of something whereas stat generation is patently a playstyle preference. But I prefer rolling both as a player and as a DM because:

• I like rolling stats, and watching my players roll stats. It feels exciting and stimulating to me.
• I like being presented with an array of weird stats, and using that as inspiration to create an interesting, flawed, character.
• I like knowing that other players stats are probably different than mine. As a DM, I like watching players adapt creatively to their weird scores.
• Historically, I've found I can catch a lot of playstyle mismatches right out of the gate merely by asking a new player to roll stats and watching how they handle an outlier roll.

Having said this, I wish that 5E stats mattered less (or at least, differently) than they do--that's a mark against the edition in my opinion, and a clear mechanical mismatch with the random stat generation method. (Though admittedly levels 1-3 do make it easy enough to funnel out weak characters, DCC style. So there's that.)

 

[pemerton]

I wish that 5E stats mattered less (or at least, differently) than they do--that's a mark against the edition in my opinion, and a clear mechanical mismatch with the random stat generation method.

I liked your whole post, but this is what stood out for me in the 5e context.

 

[dd.stevenson]

I liked your whole post, but this is what stood out for me in the 5e context.

Fortunately, I think this problem can be solved completely by houseruling the stat modifier bonus/penalty chart, since these bear all the mechanical weight in 5E. I'm giving 5E one campaign without houserules just to see how it works--then it's off to the cutting board.

 

[overgeeked]

I am, as a person, incredibly unlucky when it comes to dice rolls. I'm the guy who whiffs all night long on attacks then finally manages to roll that one 20... on some essentially irrelevant skill check. When I have to randomly roll my characters, I opt for the suicide clause because playing a character that's all negative modifiers is a terrible experience. That's not role-playing, or roll-playing, that's a forced evening of humiliation. I say forced because there have been DMs who refuse to allow arrays or point-buy options. That's just the DM being a prick. Pure and simple. So it's literally a choice between suicide the character or stand up and leave because I rolled badly... and I do mean badly on stats. That's not fun. It's only fun for the other players as they get to point and laugh all night. Straight up screw that.

So yeah, rolling stats is a punishment for some. Utter, mind-boggling torture. It's usually the players who are personally very lucky screaming and crying and whinging about rolling their stats. I've watched players roll three 18s in a row... then they tell me to suck it up when I roll three 8s and nothing above a 12.

Random rolls have no place in determining stats or hit points. I mean honestly, it makes about as much sense as rolling the starting level for each character in the group.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Well, here we are talking about the sacred cow...

I think I must have just had an incredible outlier experience. My players have ALL rolled in front of me, and while I have witnessed substantial stat variation, I have never encountered a player with a key ability score lower than 15 walking into the game. That said, I would have no problem with point buy if the players wanted it. One of my last games (Iron Heroes) got an overwhelming vote for point buy and so that's what happened. Before AND after that, though, my players pretty consistently wanted to roll and they ended up pretty happy with what they got.

This most recent game has been probably the least impressive overall roll-wise and I still have:

15, 12, 9, 10, 5, 13
14, 14, 10, 10, 12, 16
9, 13, 12, 16, 10, 11
15, 15, 13, 16, 15, 12

Now yes, this does mean that some players just have a great advantage over others in terms of character generation, but somehow I have yet to find that this particular part of the process really ends up making a hash of spotlight balance (which is my most important concern in any game). I would LOVE to hear about others' experiences with how this can skew the game.

Just to be clear: I am also a believer in lower-bound correction. If your rolls are not so good (i.e. 13- in primary stat combined with less than +3 in stat bonuses overall), I'll let you either reroll or take point buy. This is one area that I feel requires some DM massaging, especially because it's so straightforward for the DM to play a role here. Rolling stats is personal, informal, and emotional, and thus a perfect time for the group to talk out any results.

 

[Dalamar]

The OP's pic wasn't sitting right with me, so I had to do a reformatting of it. You know, for science.

What I did was arrange the stats in a given array from highest to lowest. And then green the stats that were higher than the corresponding stat in the standard array and red the stats that were lower than the corresponding stat in the standard array. I also counted the point buy costs for the arrays. Since there are no official costs for stats higher than 5, I did two versions. The first one assumes that each point of stat beyond 15 is two points, the latter that each is three points. Stats lower than 8 are assumed to give back points on a one-for-one basis. Point Buy totals higher than the standard array's 27 have been high-lighted in green, and the ones lower in red. Also, since it wasn't much bother, I calculated the average for each stat in a position.

Looking only at the stats, it doesn't really matter that much whether you roll or not, it seems they'll average pretty close to the standard array. Though I'd hate to have array 10 or 11 if somebody else in the group had array 1. Especially if we were playing similar classes. Array 11 is the only one that wouldn't pass 3.x's "unplayable character" rule.

But turning to the point buy totals, I can see where the "being punished" mentality comes from. Depending on the way you want to count the stats higher than 15, there's only either a 1-in-3 (33%) or a 4-in-15 (27%) chance that your total is lower, while the chance for a total that is higher is7-in-15 (47%) or 8-in-15 (53%), with the final 20% being reserved for getting a total that's equal. Those look like pretty good odds, especially if there is an option of rerolling a character that is deemed unfi to be played.

In closing, I'm going to stick with my previous gut feeling that it's either better to give players an array or point buy, or just let them write in whatever stats they feel fit their character. Especially since most of the people I play with usually have a character concept in mind before they start generating stats.

 

[delericho]

Over the years I ran 3e, I was constantly tinkering with the stat-gen method. I never quite found a method that I was truly happy with - random rolls invariably led to one PC significantly better or worse than the others (or, worst, one of each in the group), while point buy ended up with cookie-cutter characters.

In the end, I settled on just giving each player a choice:

1) 4d6-drop-lowest. Reroll if your highest stat is 13 or less, or if your net bonus is +0 or worse. If you chose this method, you had to roll in front of the group, and the moment the first die hit the table you couldn't change your mind. (And, yes, you were expected to play the character that resulted in good faith - no suiciding.)

2) Fixed array: 16/15/13/12/10/8

3) 28-point buy, using the costs from the 3e DMG.

It turned out that this worked really well, with almost everyone choosing the default array. I fully intend to stick with the same for 5e.