D&D 5E Getting the AD&D feel in 5th edition

[fuindordm]

So I've been giving some thought to what aspects of AD&D I really liked, and which are really distinct it that edition. Most of the things I've thought of are already close enough to 5th edition that I don't think any tweaking is necessary! But here are a couple of my ideas, please feel free to add your own:

1. XP for treasure, more than XP for monsters.
This one is easy. The 1e DMG was pretty explicit on the subject, as I recall: you reward the PCs for getting what the PCs really want, which is fame and fortune. If they can sneak into a lair and recover most of the loot without getting hurt, so much the better. This is how people would really behave in the sort of fantasy world we're imagining--combat is fun, but people don't go looking for it when there is a risk of injury and death!

Suggestion: Grant XP for treasure at a 1xp=1gp rate. Introduce training costs as a way of soaking up the treasure. Grant XP for monsters at 10%, so combat still contributes.

2. Natural healing is slow, magic healing is weak.

By the book, PCs in AD&D heal very slowly and rely on Cure Light Wounds for a very long time to keep themselves in fighting trim. (In practice, of course, a party would often finds scrolls and potions to extend their time in the dungeon.) This has two important consequences for the style of the campaign: players plan fights to avoid getting hurt (ambush or avoidance are common tactics), and the party often needs to rest several days between forays.

In 5th edition, 2 long rests is always enough to get you to full strength. In fact, the roles of HP and HD owe a lot to 4th edition's HP and healing surges. In 4th edition, healing surges were the true measure of player stamina, not HP.

So I'm thinking that HD can represent long-term fatigue and even wounds. I'm OK with HP fluctuating wildly during and between combats, to represent the PC's short-term capacity to avoid damage in a fight. But when the party runs out of HD, they are getting pretty tired and have probably been seriously hurt by dropping to 0 HP a time or two.

Suggestion:

To create an incentive for ambush/avoidance over straight combat, introduce a COST to reaching 0 HP.

• If you drop to 0 HP, you lose 1 HD from your pool. This represents the loss of stamina from the wound you just took.
• If you are hit by an attack while at zero HP, lose another HD from your pool.
• (optional) If you receive a critical hit, lose 1 HD from your pool.
• (optional) If necrotic damage takes you to zero HP or inflicts a critical hit, your next CON save is disadvantaged.
• (optional) If psychic damage takes you to 0 HP or is a critical hit, your next WIS save is disadvantages.

There are lots of possible effects along these lines that could be added, such as forcing your next roll of HD to be at disadvantage, tacking on extra HD losses when you are vulnerable to a damage type, and so on.

Furthermore, we can play with the healing spells a little:

• A cure spell (not healing word) cast with a 3rd or 4th level slot restores 1 HD to your pool.
• A cure spell cast with a 5th or 6th level spell slot restores 2 HD to your pool.
• A cure spell cast with a 7th level or higher slot adds 3 HP to your pool.
• The Heal spell adds 4 HD to your pool.

So powerful healing magic actually cures your "wounds", but low-level healing just restores your short-term combat energy.

Finally, to encourage more down time between forays, we can tweak the effects of a long-term rest:

• A long rest restores 1 HD to your pool.
• A 24 hour rest restores 2 HD to your pool.
• A successful DC 15 Healing check during a 24 hr rest restores an extra HD to your pool.

 

[Jaelommiss]

I have been considering using exhaustion in a similar way that you use hit dice. For instance, when reduced to 0 HP, make a DC 20 Con save or gain one level of exhaustion. There is a chance to avoid it if the player gets lucky, though it is not too likely unless they are proficient in Con saves. This would work well with critical hits as well.

By having a penalty that slowly reduces the player's ability to continue, getting severely wounded is much more likely to be feared by the players. Losing the potential to heal is a potential punishment (no effect until they need that HD), but having reduced speed or disadvantage on rolls will instantly weaken them.

 

[fuindordm]

Hi Jaelommiss,

That's also a good idea. I've been wary of fatigue/exhaustion mechanics in the past because I don't want to trap the PCs in a death spiral, where getting wounded once makes them more likely to collect more wounds. But low levels of exhaustion are sustainable. Reaching the third level of exhaustion (disadvantage on all attacks) will likely convince the PCs to pull out.

 

[sithramir]

I really like this idea. However, 5e appears to balance CR with hit points and damage. I fear this will really put a hurt on PC's.

Having more than one or two battles will easily exhaust them and HD would be so rare for healing. I fear it might unbalance classes because of that also.
Suddenly bards and clerics become overly powerful and they are already pretty beefy as it is

 

[Sacrosanct]

With the caveat that we all played 1e a bit differently, here are the things I do in 5e that captures that same feel (which happened naturally, by the way, because it's just a playstyle)

1. Rulings on the fly. Rather than memorize all the rules in the books, if something came up that we didn't know the rule for or didn't know exactly if it was covered, the DM just came up with a reasonable way to handle it. Most of these are around just assigning a DC to an appropriate ability check

2. Minis only used for general locations and marching order. A lot of TotM in combat, especially combat with few enemies

3. Having a player act as a mapper. A critically important role in AD&D that seems to have went the wayside when battlemaps and grids were used.

4. Focus on equipment and your surroundings rather than a power on your sheet. I.e., frequent usage of things like burning oil, caltrops, ropes, spikes, etc

 

[Nebulous]

I really like your ideas, but i too am afraid of mucking around so severely with the hit point and recovery system. Utilizing the existing Exhaustion rules, however, might be an acceptable middle ground.

 

[Nebulous]

With the caveat that we all played 1e a bit differently, here are the things I do in 5e that captures that same feel (which happened naturally, by the way, because it's just a playstyle)

1. Rulings on the fly. Rather than memorize all the rules in the books, if something came up that we didn't know the rule for or didn't know exactly if it was covered, the DM just came up with a reasonable way to handle it. Most of these are around just assigning a DC to an appropriate ability check

2. Minis only used for general locations and marching order. A lot of TotM in combat, especially combat with few enemies

3. Having a player act as a mapper. A critically important role in AD&D that seems to have went the wayside when battlemaps and grids were used.

4. Focus on equipment and your surroundings rather than a power on your sheet. I.e., frequent usage of things like burning oil, caltrops, ropes, spikes, etc

1. I'm getting the hang of this pretty well in 5e. The rules are well suited to improvisation, which i love.
2. Well, i love minis, i just love those little suckers, so i tend to use them often.
3. We haven't had a reason for a dedicated mapper yet, but when we do I will encourage someone to do that.
4. Yes, we've already seen much more "outside the box" thinking since there is not a power card list anymore.

 

[fuindordm]

I really like this idea. However, 5e appears to balance CR with hit points and damage. I fear this will really put a hurt on PC's.

Having more than one or two battles will easily exhaust them and HD would be so rare for healing. I fear it might unbalance classes because of that also.
Suddenly bards and clerics become overly powerful and they are already pretty beefy as it is

I haven't played enough yet to get a sense for how much healing comes from spell slots or HD. This is certainly the kind of thing that needs to be playtested, and it does make low-level characters more fragile compared to high-level characters. An 8th level PC can afford to lose a HD or two after a tough combat, especially if someone is willing to spend a high-level spell slot.

Maybe this makes low-level characters lose too much of their recovery potential. But again, the goal is to create an incentive in play to avoid getting hurt in the first place.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your feedback.

Other questions to consider:
* Would 5E benefit from a gestalt-style multiclassing option similar to AD&D? What should such characters have to give up, if anything?
* Magic is more dangerous in AD&D, particularly with respect to the risk of cursed magic items and the difficulty of identifying them. Not everyone's cup of tea of course.

 

[Nebulous]

I haven't played enough yet to get a sense for how much healing comes from spell slots or HD. This is certainly the kind of thing that needs to be playtested, and it does make low-level characters more fragile compared to high-level characters. An 8th level PC can afford to lose a HD or two after a tough combat, especially if someone is willing to spend a high-level spell slot.

Maybe this makes low-level characters lose too much of their recovery potential. But again, the goal is to create an incentive in play to avoid getting hurt in the first place.


.

In my (limited) 5e experience, with characters now at 3rd level, getting dropped to zero hit points can happen very, very quickly. Reducing their HD total might not be the best idea. Adding monsters with 50% extra hit points or +1d6 damage would have the same end result...lethal. Players will quickly get the picture: avoid fights if you can. Or, just add more monsters to the mix instead of tougher ones. I'm not actually how the Challenge Rating math is supposed to work in this edition, as far as escalating encounters.

 

[Lanefan]

A few things you could try:

1. Make magic risky - fill-the-volume fireballs, rebounding lightning bolts, cursed items, etc.
2. If you fail a save vs. area effect damage your possessions all have to save or be destroyed
3. Different save tables or requirements vs. different things (spell, death, poison, etc.)
4. Make death after low level carry more consequence: resurrection survival roll, permanent Con. loss, etc.
5. Bring back full-on level loss
6. Slow down the pace of play e.g. make the players tell you where they are searching instead of just rolling a die
6a. Assume the campaign will last as long as you are willing to DM it, and expect some player turnover
7. Slow down level advancement particularly after about 4th level
7a. Award just as many experience points for intentionally avoiding an encounter as you would for defeating it
8. Bring in training rules for level-up (this is also a good way to bleed away some treasure)
9. Allow players to each have more than one character on the go at a time, don't sweat it if you're DMing a party of 12 PCs
9a. Allow or encourage players to cycle characters in and out of the party between adventures
10. Expect and encourage henches and hirelings (and donkeyhorses) as a normal part of the party
11. Avoid adventure paths unless one naturally arises from the run of play
12. Convert and run some classic 1e adventures, assuming your players aren't already familiar with them
13. Don't use feats or skills if you can get away with it, they weren't in 1e
14. Find (or invent) a better and more fluid initiative system than any of 3e-4e-5e use

Lan-"plan B, of course, is to turn it around and port some elements of 5e into the 1e game"-efan