D&D 5E Monk and Druid "reviews"

[AmerginLiath]

For the shadow monk, it has some really neat utility powers if you're gonna go the scout role (I did), but you're not all that in combat. I've gone down more than any other class. Five times I think so far. But then again, we really don't have that many short rests and I'm often out of ki, which would have something to do with that. Shadow step is extremely helpful though. And going from a d4 to a d6 for monk damage also helps.

Hearing about characters having utility/scout characteristics instead of combat abilities gives me the warm fuzzies!

 

[Celtavian]

Wouldn't work at my table.

Barkskin turns the target creature's skin to rough bark, giving AC not less than 16. Great news for the druid. She now has AC 16.

It's a concentration spell. There is specific wording in the wild shape description that says that concentration spells are maintained when the druid goes into wild shape. That's also great news for the druid; when her AC 11 bear form is "killed", she'll be back to her AC 16 barkskinned druid form (assuming she make her Constitution save to maintain concentration). There's absolutely nothing there that implies the barkskin carries over to the bear form, and plenty to imply that it doesn't (the bear form replaces all of the druid's physical stats, including worn armor, magic bonus from magic armor, etc).

If there are DM's out there that allow it, more power to them. But I'd also hope that they're not complaining about the moon druid being OP.

You eliminated the entire point of the spell. Druid can get better than a 16 AC without barkskin. The spell's only use is when Wild Shaped.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Not if the Druid casts Barkskin first.

Perhaps. But by that time (level 3), most of the advantages of being a bear compared to your other level 2 companions are already being mitigated as the other classes have now gotten their subclass

 

[Sacrosanct]

You eliminated the entire point of the spell. Druid can get better than a 16 AC without barkskin. The spell's only use is when Wild Shaped.

Wait, what? No it's not. Most druids won't have a DEX bonus (since other attributes are more important), so they have hide and a wooden shield. That's AC 14. Barkskin has plenty of uses other than wild shape. Even more so if you rule that shields add to that AC

 

[Zardnaar]

I've DM'ed both, extensively, over the last few months. At least 40 hours play with each.

In my experience, the "broken-ness" of the moon druid is overrated. I've seen two die already. Here are my observations:

1) The brown bear is the shape-of-choice for the moon druid at low levels, sometimes interspersed with the tiger.

2) The huge buffer of hp offered by the bear is very nice, and they have formidable damage output. But at 4th-5th level, this was not in any way outpacing the party fighter or monk. The monk was dropping 4 attacks per round with ki flurry, for 1d6+4 per hit and a better attack bonus than the brown bear. The dual-weapon fighter was not being over-shadowed either. Their Extra Attack action at 5th level kept them on par with the bear, and their AC was far superior. Action Surge was pushing them in front. As for the spellcasters, none of them felt they were being overshadowed. The bear can't fireball. And that, to me, is the most important consideration by far: do the other players feel like they're living in the shadow of the druid? For my group, the answer was a clear NO. As DM, if I feel it's unbalanced, I can always sic more monsters on the bear, have it soak more attacks, etc. But it's the other players' opinions that matter most. And they thought it was just fine.

3) The bear's big vulnerability, of course, is AC 11. In many respects, that's a real risk for the druid. Sure, they have a big pool of temps, but excess damage rolls over the top. I had a player druid sweating for nearly 2 minutes at the table, trying to work out if it was too *dangerous* to wildshape (or stay wildshaped) when facing down a group of hobgoblins. Hobgobs, if you don't know, have poor attack rolls (+3) but do hefty damage with martial advantage (2d6+1d8+1). The same is true of many other creatures (most small creatures with poison, for example). Sometimes, it's better to have the high AC and only be hit once, rather than get hit multiple times and have a bunch of the damage roll over onto your regular hp. The moon druid has seen too many times when his bear form was on 12hp and got tagged by low attack rolls for 30+ damage. He'd rather have been in barkskinned regular form and been missed by everything.

4) The real kicker, though, is the lack of spellcasting in wildshape (at least until higher levels). If the bear can act as a Defender (i.e. soak most enemy attacks), then no problem. But if it's a general melee versus multiple opponents, the other PCs are going to be lamenting the loss of healing.

5) How did our 2 moon druids die? One ran into a medusa at 5th level. Surprise! You're a statue. No amount of bear hp is helping there. The other one simply got overwhelmed by an owlbear at 3rd level. He went into wildshape, and found out the hard way that it's not 4th edition any more. All the analyses on DPR and survivability-over-time tend to go out the window when a combat can be largely over in 3 rounds. The druid wildshaped and moved to "take the beats", protecting the rest of the party with his huge buffer of HP. But then he took a hit and a crit (the owlbear, of course, needs only a 4 to hit the bear's AC...). Blam - no more wildshape. Suddenly, he's a spellcaster on the front-line. Over the next two rounds, the owlbear proceeded to turn the druid into a glove puppet. The player's next character was a fighter with AC 19, second wind, and a lot more hp. He lived longer.

6) Moon Druid Anecdote: A few sessions before he got petrified, the 5th level moon druid player was adventuring in the desert. He came across an oasis with a large pool of water. The party wondered if there was any loot at the bottom of the pool, but nobody was keen on wading in. So, the moon druid turns into a shark and leaps into the pool. In the middle of the Sahara (effectively). At that point, a trio of giant scorpions erupted out of the sand nearby and proceeded to lay into the rest of the party. On his turn, the moon druid leaped out of the oasis pool in shark form (Athletics / Jump) and chomped down on one of the giant scorpions. We now have a shark threshing around on a sand dune in a struggle to the death, with an 8'ft long scorpion in its jaws. Awesomesauce. You know what that player's biggest disappointment was, about dying at 5th level? Because they weren't going to have the opportunity to turn into a dinosaur (allosaurus/plesiosaurus) at 6th level.

Druid Analysis: It's fine.

...

Let's talk about the monk. We've had 3 of them so far. Probably the most popular class in our group. Everyone wants to be Bruce Lee / Jackie Chan. Or an airbender. No Way of the Shadow yet, strangely. Ninjas were so popular back in the '80's...

1) The monk is a tough one to analyse. Firstly, it's worth pointing out that they've all since died. The aforementioned medusa, a bandit ambush, and a lesser earth elemental. They're not invulnerable. Low-ish AC, mid-ish HP. Even more than the druid, this one lives or dies by the Short Rest.

2) It's worth noting that I'm a fairly tough DM. If the guidelines say that a typical adventuring day has 6-7 encounters, and expects a maximum of 2 short rests in that time, then I'll adjust the module to make sure that happens. The princess dies in only 3 hours! Wandering monsters (i.e. the next 1-2 keyed encounters) come looking for YOU when you try to rest! You can't rest in a sandstorm! The DM is NEVER subject to the desires of the characters when it comes to Short or Long Rests. You run the story, you set the challenge. That's your job, dammit.

3) So, the monk has to be a bit judicious when using his ki points. All three monks deaths in my campaign occurred when they were out of ki. Why? Because of ki=bonus_dodge. It's not about the 4 attacks per round, or the stunning strike. It's about dodge as a bonus action. Giving all attacking creatures disadvantage for a round is mad strong, especially when a fight might only last 3-4 rounds. Of course, as DM, you can be judicious about that as well. Unless the enemy has no other choice, it's pretty obvious that the monk is ducking-and-weaving. Go beat on someone else for a round, instead. I'll generally run it according to my opinion of threat. If the rest of the party is already under heavy pressure, then I'll have some of the foes attack the obviously-dodging monk. If it looks like they're handling the combat just fine, then I'll ignore the monk and beat on someone else for a while.

4) I found the airbender monk a bit weaker than the fists-of-fury monk, but I can't tell if that was mechanics, build or circumstance. Certainly, the fists-of-fury monk can do some decent damage output. And they have more maneuverability and flexibility than the party fighter. Again, the acid test: did the other players think the monk was too weak? No, because they keep building them. Do they think it's too strong? No, because they keep dying - and their edge over the fighter or the wizard isn't in damage; it's in "cool-ness" and secondary characteristics (speed, etc).

5) Monk Anecdote: Hoo boy. This one really rocked the table. I've laid down a multi-room battlemap, covering maybe 4ftx4ft of my gaming table (using 3d Dwarven Forge). Various rooms and corridors. The party has cleared most of these, and is fighting a bunch of yuan-ti in a corner room. Party wizard casts haste on the monk. And here we go... Monk has base 40' move at 5th level. Haste doubles speed, and gives extra action. Monk burns ki to take Dash as Bonus Action. This is what happens: Monk attacks yuan-ti twice, smacking it around (Attack action). He then moves 160' (32 squares, Bonus Action from ki), passing through every other room in the laid-out dungeon, running down corridors, tearing through doors... runs up behind the same yuan-ti and attacks it again (extra Haste Attack action). He did a complete circuit of the dungeon between punches. Awesomesauce.

Monk Analysis: It's fine.

...

So, I have no issues with either class. Other than the fact that, in the hands of a competent DM and a creative player, they may cause dangerous levels of Awesome Overload at your table. Remember to wear goggles, for your own protection.

Not quite as brutal but the moon Druid only deals a low to moderate amount of damage and we were level 9 and 10 facing hobgoblins and wild shape tended to not last very long. Moon Druid is probably OP at level 2 but its all down hill form there except maybe level 10 and 18/20.

 

[Lancelot]

You eliminated the entire point of the spell. Druid can get better than a 16 AC without barkskin. The spell's only use is when Wild Shaped.

Barkskin is a touch spell, on one willing creature. The rogue wants it (Leather armor + 16 Dex = 14 AC). The wizard wants it (No Armor + 12 Dex = 11 AC, or 14 AC with mage armor). Heck, at lower levels, I've seen fighters, rangers, monks and barbarians who would benefit from another +1 or +2 AC.

The wizard's familiar wants it. The paladin's mount wants it. The NPC accompanying the party wants it.

...not counting the druid herself, of course. As pointed out by Sacrosanct, the average druid is rockin' a 14 AC. One of the druids in our party had a 12 AC (no shield), because he was using a melee weapon and wanting to keep one hand free for somatic casting, climbing, or occasionally using the weapon two-handed (versatile damage bonus, etc).

So: no, I'm not eliminating the point of barkskin. The spell is plenty fine as it stands. It makes no "story sense" (to me) for the druid to thicken their skin into bark, then turn into a completely different creature and expect the magic to carry over.

 

[KarinsDad]

So: no, I'm not eliminating the point of barkskin. The spell is plenty fine as it stands. It makes no "story sense" (to me) for the druid to thicken their skin into bark, then turn into a completely different creature and expect the magic to carry over.

Well, the intent (and even RAW best I can tell) of concentration buff spells with wild shape is that they carry over. House ruling is fine, but probably not needed.

 

[KarinsDad]

Perhaps. But by that time (level 3), most of the advantages of being a bear compared to your other level 2 companions are already being mitigated as the other classes have now gotten their subclass

This doesn't sound quite right.

The Druid does not even get to be a bear until level 2 (and then only Circle of the Moon Druids). So are you saying that the advantages of being a bear only last for a single level?

At level 3 and 4, the additional hit points (above and beyond normal hit points) are still there and the damage is more or less as good or better than most other melee PCs. Barkskin definitely puts the Druid into the drivers seat for these two levels (at least while it is up).

A Moon Druid casting Barkskin can easily survive better and still do as much or more damage all of the way up to level 4. It's only at level 5 with more than one attack per round that most melee classes get any sort of edge. At level 4, the Rogue with dual weapon with both hitting is doing about 18 points of damage, the Moon Druid is doing 19. At level 4, the Fighter hitting with a great weapon is doing 12 damage and the raging Barbarian is doing 13. A dual weapon Two Weapon Colossus Slayer Ranger with Hunter's Mark up with both hitting does 18 (or 22) damage.

While it's true that the other classes get their subclass and hence might do similar amounts of damage, the Druid gets Barkskin. +5 AC (typically for a reasonable number of rounds per day) has to be just as good as most of the subclass gains.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wait, what? No it's not. Most druids won't have a DEX bonus (since other attributes are more important), so they have hide and a wooden shield. That's AC 14. Barkskin has plenty of uses other than wild shape. Even more so if you rule that shields add to that AC

Maybe in your games. The PCs in our game started out with Dex 12, 14, 14, 14, 16, and 16. Dex just helps out with too many things to not be taken at all (Stealth, AC, Init, and Dex saves).

 

[Gadget]

There's absolutely nothing there that implies the barkskin carries over to the bear form, and plenty to imply that it doesn't (the bear form replaces all of the druid's physical stats, including worn armor, magic bonus from magic armor, etc).

Hmmm...it specifically says that concentration spells are maintained, that seems to be something that implies it works in shape change form. A Druid's physical stats are strength, dexterity, and constitution, so that's neither here nor there; and barkskin is not armor, so that does not seem to apply. The wording of the spell says it sets the AC at a minimum of 16. 16 is greater than the brown bear's 11, therefore the AC is 16. There is a raging discussion about this spell in another thread, but there is a strong contingent that asserts that the spell, as written, would not grant dex bonus to AC, or cover bonus, or even the benefit of a shield. I guess the lesson here is that Barkskin is poorly written, but that is no great revelation.

And, from what I've heard, the focus of the "Moon Circle Druid is Overpowered" argument is that they get the bear (and other, almost as powerful shapes) at 2nd level. Sure, by 5th level everything seems fine, but it is at levels 2-4 or so that the problem manifests. I have heard it said that a simple fix for the perceived issue is to not allow 1/2 CR forms until 4th or 5th level, and start the druid out with 1/4 CR forms, but that would have to be play tested.