D&D 5E Evaluating the warlord-y Fighter

Joe Liker

First Post
I have a friend who has played warlords almost exclusively, ever since 4e came out. He's playing a Battlemaster now and loving it. He feels like it captures the feel of the class very well.

He hasn't quite gotten used to rationing his dice yet, but he agrees that it's probably a good thing that he actually has to swing his own sword every once in a while.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Cybit

First Post
The problems with the warlord concept translating directly from 4E to 5E is that warlords were pants-on-head crazy powerful when used correctly and synergized with a team. Action point novas would wreck encounters in a heartbeat. I think they toned down the abilities because they were crazy good; not because they wanted to change the concept of the class. (In my 5 year 4E game, I had a warlord from 1 to 20 in a party of six people. I ended up banning the essentials classes because they were bananas with warlords due to the reliance on basic attacks. Still, that warlord was insanity pants)

I think the problem with off-turn actions is that it slowed down combat immensely; that part I think was a conscious decision to remove.

I do think they could use superiority dice being refreshed at 1/round; because of the limitation on them, people are afraid to use them. Or make them a daily resource at like cha mod + fighter level per day. The current refresh is just too inconsistent to make them as useful as they should be.
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Pretty good take-down! My current character in my 4e game is a warlord, so I've been peering at the 5e presentation of it with a peery eye as well, and see a lot of the same things you do.

That said, I think I'm more comfortable with the costs.

koga305 said:
As mentioned above, superiority dice are hard to come by and may not recharge often in the adventuring day. This, combined with a tendency to hoard resources until you really need them, means that a Warlord fighter isn't using his or her abilities on a regular basis.
Like you point out, I think this is intentional - "cool moves" are meant to stand out in 5e, which means your "normal moves" (cantrips and weapon attacks) need to be used. In 4e, you did something special with every attack. In 5e, you might just hit it with your sword one round, and that's OK -- intentional, even, since it keeps the game flowing fast and highlights the special moves a little more dramatically.

Most Warlord abilities are relegated to a subsection of a particular class; most options aren't available until third or fourth level and there are only a few of them. By contrast, the 4E Warlord had a whole class's worth of design space to breathe in, with many different viable builds available even from the start.

I think what you characterize as "room to breathe," I might argue is "fiddly bits that had no functional effect." There's a lot of chaff in 100 powers, especially when a given player will only see 10% or so of them. Some of the granular detail is lost in 5e, because the powers aren't as fine-grained, but I think that's still intentional and has an awesome secondary effect (a faster and more dramatic game).

The level thing is likewise in fitting with 5e's pacing -- a lot of classes don't get their defining characteristic until a later level. You can't channel divinity as a 1st-level cleric or metamagic as a 1st-level sorcerer. Classes have a few "training levels," including the 5e version of the warlord.

The 5E "Warlord" lacks access to the depth and breadth of buffing and healing abilities that the 4E Warlord had - he or she can't move, buff, or heal multiple allies at once, deal with conditions, or lead the whole party in a powerful round of attacks.

The nova potential comes in the form of extra attacks -- and thus extra chances to use Superiority Dice. A 5th-level fighter can have 4 attacks in a round, and so could easily move their entire party by using Maneuvering Attack on each hit, or give up each of those attacks to party members in a Commander's Strike, or combine the Distracting Strike with a few Commander's Strike or whatever. 5e's "it's OK to make basic attacks" philosophy crops up after that, but since monsters only survive about 3 rounds anyway...those are encounter-dominating effects.

It's true that a 5e warlord can't really replace a 5e cleric or a 5e bard (in general), though in 5e, a few healing potions do go a long way toward anyone serving as the party healer in a pinch.

The martial support abilities available aren't totally unviable, but they're hardly topping the charts so far as character optimization goes. The "best" healer and buffer is still a Bard or Cleric, while a Battlemaster Fighter must invest many resources to even approach the utility of these classes. The most powerful "Warlord" style character is likely a hybrid, serving as the 5E equivalent of a Defender or Striker with the secondary role of a Leader.

Eh. I'm not sure you need much more than giving folks advantage on attacks, giving them attacks, and protecting them, when you want to be a good Leader. The 5e warlord is no healbot, and if that's what you want out of your warlord, you'd be better off going 5e bard. In terms of enhancing the party's performance, the 5e battle master does the job pretty well. 4e had more granularity and variety, but it is, IMXP, a lot of distinction without much of a difference. I'd easily give up 3-5 of my 4e warlord's attack powers for the ability to make a 4 critters/milestone grant 5e's version of advantage, personally. Fewer, bigger effects.
 

A Warlock that is not selffish! A premiere!

Or maybe just adding new invocations, or new Pact Boon: helm of tactical genius.

But, no. The least tinkering is the best. I created a lot of Homebrew stuff, but always as sub-classes, not classes (except for monsters as a race).

It is the 1st time I consider a warlord as something else than a fighter, thus...

We can change the protection fighting style, adding a rule that Battlemaster maneuvers can affect allies in a 10' radius ex: parry. Protection with shield AND words.

Heh, I was thinking more in terms of power layout/acquisition, not as an actual warlock subclass. Similar to how the 9 level casters use the same progression, the paladin/ranger progression, and the arcane trikcster/eldritch knight progression.

Use it as the stepping stone to build a whole new class for people who find the battlemaster lacking.

I'm thinking d8 HD, Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons. 2nd attack at 6th level probably. In comparison to the Paladin, they don't get the divine damage boost, but their attack riders from the invocation equivalents make up for the extra d8 radiant.

Since they are short rest driven, Healing word should probably require the recipients to spend hit dice, though gain a a scaling bonus similar to Song of Rest. This avoids spamming healing word, taking a short rest, spamming healing word, etc. I had enough free healing in 3E with everyone spending a minute poking each other with a CLW stick after each fight.

Where it gets more complicated is coming up with maneuvers the equivalent of high level spells and avoiding too much fiddly minor situational bonuses. in terms of buffs, 5E is somewhat more limited to Free Attacks, Advantage, Auto Crits, Disadvantage, bonus dice and letting allies take specific actions as a bonus action or reaction. I'd open up the warlord's schtick to inflicting some single target debilitating effects as well. In 4E, you had to worry about making them too similar to fighters/rogues/rangers, less so now.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The battlemaster is a poor man's 4E fighter, and an even poorer 4E warlord. If you regained superiority dice 1/round, it might be OK.

This is where you'd bring in the "Short rest = 5 minutes" variant from the DMG into your campaign. If you're trying for the 4E Warlord stylings as much as possible, you probably might as well would want 4E style for rest and healing that the DMG offers up as well. 4 Superiority dice essentially every encounter would take you quite a ways there towards a more 4E styled Warlord.
 

Fewer, bigger effects.

If they were actually bigger, you might have a point. I'm not terribly impressed with the guy who blows HIS ENTIRE TACITCAL WAD to let 4 guys move and is back to "herp a derp, I hit it with my sword".

If 4E was "If everyone is special, no one is special", then 5E is "If no one is special, then no one is special." You know, except for the guy throwing down meteor swarms. But hey Fighter, your "nova" is trying to shove something a short distance several times before you need a nap, so that's cool too buddy!

Man, the 5E fighter sucks. I blame the Champion. Because the whining grognards want a fighter without nice things (so they can just play their caster anyways), now no fighter can have nice things.

Play a paladin, which gets to drop in massive extra bonus dice on a crit with smites (after the die is rolled), party utility and solid nova capability and tell me how a battlemaster holds up. I'm not talking some game starting when you get 2 action surges and 4 attacks either.

5E isn't quite casters and caddies like 3E/Pathfinder, but its a big step back from 4E in terms of giving the non-casters interesting and flashy effects.
 

TwoSix

Master of the One True Way
Man, the 5E fighter sucks. I blame the Champion. Because the whining grognards want a fighter without nice things (so they can just play their caster anyways), now no fighter can have nice things..
While I agree with you on some of the big-picture issues, I predict the posts following this will only end in tears.
 

Rune

Once A Fool
Heh, I was thinking more in terms of power layout/acquisition, not as an actual warlock subclass. Similar to how the 9 level casters use the same progression, the paladin/ranger progression, and the arcane trikcster/eldritch knight progression.

Use it as the stepping stone to build a whole new class for people who find the battlemaster lacking.

I'm thinking d8 HD, Medium Armor, Shields, and Martial Weapons. 2nd attack at 6th level probably. In comparison to the Paladin, they don't get the divine damage boost, but their attack riders from the invocation equivalents make up for the extra d8 radiant.

Since they are short rest driven, Healing word should probably require the recipients to spend hit dice, though gain a a scaling bonus similar to Song of Rest. This avoids spamming healing word, taking a short rest, spamming healing word, etc. I had enough free healing in 3E with everyone spending a minute poking each other with a CLW stick after each fight.

Where it gets more complicated is coming up with maneuvers the equivalent of high level spells and avoiding too much fiddly minor situational bonuses. in terms of buffs, 5E is somewhat more limited to Free Attacks, Advantage, Auto Crits, Disadvantage, bonus dice and letting allies take specific actions as a bonus action or reaction. I'd open up the warlord's schtick to inflicting some single target debilitating effects as well. In 4E, you had to worry about making them too similar to fighters/rogues/rangers, less so now.

How would it interact with the multiclass rules?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
If they were actually bigger, you might have a point. I'm not terribly impressed with the guy who blows HIS ENTIRE TACITCAL WAD to let 4 guys move and is back to "herp a derp, I hit it with my sword".

If 4E was "If everyone is special, no one is special", then 5E is "If no one is special, then no one is special." You know, except for the guy throwing down meteor swarms. But hey Fighter, your "nova" is trying to shove something a short distance several times before you need a nap, so that's cool too buddy!

Man, the 5E fighter sucks. I blame the Champion. Because the whining grognards want a fighter without nice things (so they can just play their caster anyways), now no fighter can have nice things.

.

Sorry you feel that way. But I think if you read all the people who have said how much they like the 5e fighter and really enjoy playing it (I'm one of them), then you might realize that your post is just your opinion that isn't really shared by most. Also, not everyone who disagrees with you is a "whining grognard".
 

Jaelommiss

First Post
I'm wondering what tweaks would be necessary to turn the current fighter into a proper warlord class.

The first thing I would do is replace Second Wind and Action Surge with Bardic Inspiration (Commander's Guidance) and Song of Rest (Rejuvinating Warchant). Without Font of Inspiration (Bard 5) the bardic inspiration dice will only ever recharge on a long rest. The Protection Fighting Style would be mandatory, tweaked to allow a superiority die to be expended to increase the range to 30 feet. The number of Combat superiority dice would be Cha + proficiency, though all dice would be reduced by one category (start at d6, d8 at 10th, d10 at 18th).

Aura of Protection (Paladin 6) would replace Know Your Enemy at level 7, but only increases to 20 foot radius at 18th level, instead of 30. If this proves too powerful then I would instead allow Indomitable to be applied to friendly targets within 30 feet by using your reaction and a superiority die.

I would only make this available to player who specifically asked to play in a supporting martial capacity, so I imagine that they would also take the Healer and Inspiring Leader feats at levels four and six.
 

Remove ads

Top