D&D 5E An issue with the Tavern Brawler feat

[Timotheos55000]

To me, the "intent" of the Tavern Brawler feat is very apparent when you look at the 'improvised weapons' entry on pages 147 and 148 of the PHB.

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes characters don’t have their weapon s and
have to attack with whatever is close at hand. An
improvised weapon includes any object you can wield
in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a
frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar
to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For
example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option,
a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar
object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon
deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type
appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged
weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee
weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also
deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a
normal range o f 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

If a DM rules that a table leg is similar enough to a club, it IS a club. A dead goblin or some poor sap's severed arm though do not resemble any other weapons per the game rules and as such are considered improvised weapons and deal only 1d4. Tavern Brawler allows a character to apply their proficiency bonus to arms, bodies, and mugs.

 

[Iosue]

So you are facing a tavern brawler in a tavern. They break a bottle and are now attacking you with the pointy end of a broken bottle. You are not scared because it is the same as using their fists.

The only benefit they get is that they can throw it at you. But then you're in a tavern so that isn't going to happen anyway.

Yes, the point of the Tavern Brawler feat is that they've gotten so good at using their hands that they don't need a weapon, but if they pick something up to use as a weapon, they're pretty skilled with that.

Remember, the Tavern Brawler isn't generally brawling with adventurers -- he's brawling with town drunks and commoner good ol' boys. Those guys do 1 point of damage with their fists and if they pick up an improvised weapon they do 1d4, but get no proficiency. The Tavern Brawler, OTOH, can do as much damage with his fists as they can do with weapons, and use improvised weapons more skillfully. But he's still a Tavern Brawler, not medieval fantasy Jason Bourne.

If I'm an adventurer facing a Tavern Brawler, I'm not worried about his use of improvised weapons -- that's still relatively course and unrefined. I'm worried about his punching and grappling skills -- the things he's really honed brawling in taverns.

Also, they later pick up a table and hit you with it. Whatever, it's only 1d4 damage, the same as their fist.

Someone able to pick up a table and hit someone with it has such incredible strength that, yeah, I think the benefit of hitting me with a table is probably negligible to punching me in the face.

Another example, a giant hits you with a rock for 4d10 damage. You enlarge yourself and throw the rock back. But darn, it's an improvised weapon so it only does 1d4 damage.

Damage scales with size.

I can live with that. But, again, when looking for INTENT they are clearly describing non-weapons or weapons used not as intended. (melee with a Bow, etc)

Sure. But if someone can swing a bow at an enemy they can swing a sword. Now, they don't know how to hold and swing a sword so that the edge always hits the enemy. They don't have a good grasp of the ideal distance for the sword. When they swing they telegraph the blow more than a skilled swordsman does. So this all affects the effectiveness of their attack with the sword (represented by damage). But they do know how to put a weapon on target; they aren't swinging wildly. So they get the prof. bonus.

Uh, per my reading of the 'weapon proficiency' entry on page 146 of the PHB, no where does it state that a PC unproficient in a weapon cant use said weapon at it's full damage dice. The attack roll just does not benefit from the character's proficiency bonus. Congrats, that wizard can wield that great club at it's full d8.

It's a trade off. You can attempt to use a non-proficient weapon like that weapon, and get that weapon's damage. But you're not really good at using that weapon AS that weapon, so you don't get the proficiency bonus. Or, you can say, forget that fancy fighting stuff -- I'm going to use this thing like I did when I fought Bobby Joe Aragorn and his buddies with a two-by-four. Then you get proficiency, but not the damage.

 

[Rune]

Obviously you would want to be able to do more than d4 damage with improvised weapons as a tavern brawler. It's not unbalanced, provided you don't gain proficiencies you don't already have.

Why? The Tavern Brawler feat already does five good things:

It grants a stat boost, grants a proficiency bonus to both unarmed and improvised weapon attacks, grants a significant damage boost to non-monk unarmed fighters, and, most significantly, grants a bonus action grapple check (which, in this edition is HUGE). It's already an excellent feat; it doesn't need to boost improvised weapon damage on top of all that.

But you still need to read the rule in a way that allows tavern brawlers to use things like actual greatclubs without entitling everybody else to automatically do so to

No I don't.

 

[Iosue]

No I don't.

It's really one of those things that sounds like an issue, but isn't in actual play. Basically, everybody already knows how to use greatclubs, except for Wizards. Looking at the weapon list, I'd feel pretty comfortable saying that a wizard who took Tavern Brawler could get de facto proficiency with all Simple Melee Weapons. That's not the rule, of course; I'm just saying that doing that wouldn't upset the game.

Rather than that, though, I think the Tavern Brawler feat is a good fit for a fighter or barbarian. They already have most weapon proficiencies that they'll need. TB just gives them prof. with everything that's NOT a weapon, plus some handy hand-to-hand and grappling skills.

 

[CapnZapp]

Why? The Tavern Brawler feat already does five good things

Thank you for asking why!

At least in my game, in order for me to truly encourage the tavern brawler to leave his greataxe at home, and come up with fanciful inventive and fun description on how to use the items in the tavern in actual combats, combats you actually play out using the full combat rules and not just "flavor fights" like "I got into a barroom brawl yesterday and beat up five drunks and a dwarf" (which don't need to be played out round by round)...

...he needs to do comparable damage. The challenge is to continously impress me with colourful descriptions on how to use chandeliers, bar stools, peg legs, beer kegs, coils of rope or passed out drunkards as actual weaponry when death cultists break out the cellar, or when confronting the cannibal halfling management, or when the Questgiver turns out to be a demon disguised as the pointy-hatted wizard...

For the player to realistically use this aspect of Tavern Brawler we need to see at least d8 damage, with the occasional d10 or 2d6. Otherwise, why bother? Why not simply bring old Murderdeath Killaxe to the tavern and skip improvised weapons altogether?

Do note that being generous this way is something I restrict to characters with the Tavern Brawl feat that already have all proficiencies in the game. It is not unbalanced in the slightest to allow a Barbarian Brawler to use a portrait of Crying Child as a 2d6 maul, since he can do that already. The win is: he doesn't need to describe how he brings his maul to the inn! He can be completely bad ass anyway!

So it isn't that you must allow this part of the feat, only that you don't lose anything (for fear of imbalance). On the contrary - I would say this use case is the most attractive and colorful part of Tavern Brawling.

So my question isn't why? It is why not?

 

[Rune]

Oh, I see. But, if you want to encourage that style of play, it can be done in game.

For instance, Tavern Brawler really comes in handy in towns that don't allow murder-hobos to walk around armed to the teeth.

 

[SkidAce]

For the player to realistically use this aspect of Tavern Brawler we need to see at least d8 damage, with the occasional d10 or 2d6. Otherwise, why bother? Why not simply bring old Murderdeath Killaxe to the tavern and skip improvised weapons altogether?

It certainly varies by campaign, and locale within the campaign, however...bringing the "killaxe" to the bar fight would show intent of lethality.

The entire town guard would be after the player etc. And afterwords the authorities would be a lot less lenient.

Of course, if said barbarian did slay the "wizard demon" in front of the townsfolk and saved the settlement from evil, they could look the other way at the murderhobo "ishness"


Depends, generic barfight....using an axe is murder. Save the town....no problem!

 

[BryonD]

Sure. But if someone can swing a bow at an enemy they can swing a sword. Now, they don't know how to hold and swing a sword so that the edge always hits the enemy. They don't have a good grasp of the ideal distance for the sword. When they swing they telegraph the blow more than a skilled swordsman does. So this all affects the effectiveness of their attack with the sword (represented by damage). But they do know how to put a weapon on target; they aren't swinging wildly. So they get the prof. bonus.

But there is already a mechanic for this and I think for the way 5E works, you are not doing the game any favors trying to extend interpretations so far out.

I could just as easily argue that "proficiency" with a sword comes precisely from knowing how to use it correctly, whereas proficiency with a improvised weapons comes from being off-the-cuff and unpredictable. So leaving the sword as-is, no prof bonus but better damage *if* you hit makes sense every bit as much as your scenario. And it works with the fundamental rules without needing to cock your head and squint while looking at a rule which has nothing to do with attacking with a sword.

I'm not saying either is "right". Frankly, I think it misses the spirit of 5E to try to say either is truly "right". But, for me, I see no need to cock my head and squint on this one.

 

[aramis erak]

The feat says:

• You are proficient with improvised weapons and
  unarmed strikes.
• Your unarmed strike uses a d4 for damage.
• When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an
  improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus
  action to attempt to grapple the target.

The section on improvised weapons says:

In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a dub. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.​

The way I'm going to rule it is that it's ALWAYS a D4 if you are using the Tavern Brawler feat. but, being proficient, you get your PB to hit. If you want to use it as whatever the hell it looks like, you'd better be proficient in it.

So, yeah, Tavern Brawler Druid can pick up Fighter's Greatsword and use it proficiently - as a d4 slashing weapon. Or he can used it unproficiently as a 2d6 weapon. So, essentially, Tavern Brawler does mean any 1d4 weapon can be used proficiently without penalty...

 

[Unwise]

Regarding the post above, If you go this route, then what is the point of having picked up the weapon at all? The tavern brawler is already proficient in unarmed and already does d4 damage.

Sometimes it is good just for style I guess. So far my tavern brawler has killed a boss with a lobster claw, killed three guards with a set of chopsticks and beat a person unconscious using their spouses head (he is not proud of that). Now he mostly uses a meat-hook as a weapon. It gels well with the "grapple on hit" thing, my DM does not make me keep a hand free unless I want to restrain the guy.

Assuming that a weapon will do d4 damage at least, given that fists already do, some "weapons" become significantly better, depending on the DM. For instance, a lantern can be used to do d4 damage and potentially light a guy on fire. A rope with a block and tackle can be used to attack then grapple, then once you restrain them, entangle them.

Don't 2-handed improvised weapons default to d6 damage? Maybe that was just in the playtest.