D&D 5E An issue with the Tavern Brawler feat

[Rune]

[MENTION=67]Rune[/MENTION] explained it.

Many of us are likely looking at it from the demographics of our campaigns.

I.e. there are not enough spellcasters around to make a normal tavern worry about putting mittens on them. sure there are tales of such...etc.

Of course, as a precaution, they could put mittens on everybody!

 

[Kobold Stew]

Of course, as a precaution, they could put mittens on everybody!

That's how it came to be that modern boxing originated in a warlock bar.

 

[Timotheos55000]

I can see larger towns actually using AM fields to circumvent magic users. Actually, that gives me a good idea for a few adventure hooks. The party having to go to a town to complete some mission and suddenly finds that they cannot use magic and in order to enter must leave their weapons under lock and key at the gate.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not really familiar with the rules here, but my experienced DM rules lawyer sense is going off reading you and I think you have misinterpreted several steps in your construction and should go back to step one.

Normal rule:
a) Attack with an improvised weapon.

I don't think you are confused on that, but I think you are confused regarding improvised weapons. A two-handed sword is never an improvised great club. It's a two-handed sword. A boat oar or a piece of lumber is an improvised great club.

Tavern Brawler Feat
a) Either attack with an improvised weapon and be proficient in it, OR if it is an improvised weapon treat it as the actual weapon it resembles and apply your proficiencies as if you were actually using a weapon.

So in this case:

1) Tavern brawler wields a great sword. Not an improvised weapon, so tavern brawler does not apply. He is attacking with a great sword, which he may or may not be proficient in.
2) Tavern brawler wields a boat oar. This is an improvised weapon. He may attack with it as an improvised weapon that he is proficient in.
3) Tavern brawler wields a boat oar. The DM rules this improvised weapon resembles a great club. The tavern brawler may at his option wield it as an improvised weapon he is proficient in OR as a great club at his choice. But if he wields it as a great club, then his proficiency with a great club - if he has one - is applicable and not his proficiency with improvised weapons.

Simple?

 

[CapnZapp]

I'm not really familiar with the rules here, but my experienced DM rules lawyer sense is going off reading you and I think you have misinterpreted several steps in your construction and should go back to step one.

Normal rule:
a) Attack with an improvised weapon.

I don't think you are confused on that, but I think you are confused regarding improvised weapons. A two-handed sword is never an improvised great club. It's a two-handed sword. A boat oar or a piece of lumber is an improvised great club.

Tavern Brawler Feat
a) Either attack with an improvised weapon and be proficient in it, OR if it is an improvised weapon treat it as the actual weapon it resembles and apply your proficiencies as if you were actually using a weapon.

So in this case:

1) Tavern brawler wields a great sword. Not an improvised weapon, so tavern brawler does not apply. He is attacking with a great sword, which he may or may not be proficient in.
2) Tavern brawler wields a boat oar. This is an improvised weapon. He may attack with it as an improvised weapon that he is proficient in.
3) Tavern brawler wields a boat oar. The DM rules this improvised weapon resembles a great club. The tavern brawler may at his option wield it as an improvised weapon he is proficient in OR as a great club at his choice. But if he wields it as a great club, then his proficiency with a great club - if he has one - is applicable and not his proficiency with improvised weapons.

Simple?

No, since Tavern Brawler doesn't add anything to #3, which is the only worthwhile scenario here.

#1 If I read you correctly you argue this applies to everyone. So Tavern Brawler is worthless
#2 This is simply worthless in all cases, since your fists do comparable damage (with or without Tavern Brawler: the difference between 1 and d4 is between pathetic and pathetic, i.e. zero)
#3 Again, what does Tavern Brawler bring to the table?

(Do note I don't hold you against this, but the rules, which are terribly unclear)

Of course you can take Tavern Brawler for any of its other benefits, but to me, in order for me to take Tavern Brawler for its implied advantages in barroom brawls using improvised weapons, I need an interpretation that
a) allows the tavern brawler to use dead goblins as clubs and braziers as halberds etc, assuming he has the necessary proficiencies, assuming he is I&O*
and
b) doesn't allow anyone else this, i.e. anyone else would treat those objects as merely d4 improvised weapons w/o proficiency bonus

In effect, allowing the Tavern Brawler to use all his existing proficiencies even without any real weaponry, as long as the player can dazzle me the DM with sufficiently inventive and outrageous descriptions/explanations to make me allow the "goblin as club" or "brazier as halberd" ruling in each case.


*) I&O = Inventive & Outrageous; which you now know what it means because you've read the preceding paragraph




So, if your answer to the "#3: what does Tavern Brawler bring to the table?" question above is "everything since I only allow this for Tavern Brawlers" then you've read this entire post in vain because I already fully agree!

 

[Rune]

What Tavern Brawler brings to the table when using improvised weapons over unarmed strikes with bonus action grapple attacks is to add the proficiency bonus when:

1: Dual wielding beer mugs.

2: Throwing chairs.

3: Using ladders as reach weapons.

4: Using ladders as reach weapons to disarm (per DMG rule) non-Tavern Brawlers of their improvised weapons, so that their attacks deal 1 base damage.