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D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

The melee PCs probably don't have to stealth. Unless those woods are very open, at 600 feet they'll have full concealment and either 3/4 or full cover, IMO. 600 feet of forest is a lot of wood and foliage.

If the hobgoblins are ducking below their barricade between shots, they have full cover. At that point the ranged PCs have to ready actions in order to hit them, which means only one attack per round.

That said, this would be a trivially easy encounter for a Crossbow Expert / Sharpshooter party because we're talking about 4 hobgoblins vs a level 4 to 8 party (the earliest you can get both feats, depending on whether variant human is allowed). If the melee decided to take a leisurely stroll up to the barricade they might be inconvenienced enough to take a short rest. Maybe. With only a +3 to hit and disadvantage for half the way, those hobgoblins will have a hard time hitting heavy armor.

If they don't sneak, the hobgoblins will hear them coming and have time to equip shields, etc. I think it's smarter to sneak. Even if they don't sneak, it will still take 20 rounds to move 600' through difficult terrain, by which time the fight may be over, even at only one attack per round. (Plus, the fights I've had like this have mostly happened at levels low enough that they only get one attack per round anyway.) Besides, why wouldn't it be the hobgoblins be readying their actions instead of vice versa? They've got 3/4 cover and there's more of them than there are PCs, and their job is to interdict the road--if PCs hide behind full cover I'd make the hobgoblins ready actions to scan the road and shoot anyone who shows themselves.

Who said these guys have Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert? I thought we were just talking about the general strengths of ranged combat, so I've actually assumed zero feats because I didn't want to stack the deck in my favor. (Specifically, I was thinking about a level 7 DX 18 shadow monk as the ranged attacker because she's the one who has most recently archery-dueled a squad of 7 hobgoblins.) With Sharpshooter this encounter is trivialized, even at level 2.
 
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Fanaelialae

Legend
For chokepoints I like Mounted Combatant paladins. Warhorses are Large so can block the chokepoint (unless someone Overruns or something), and if the paladin (who is also a Wild Sorcerer) Enlarges himself he'll be Huge and able to block even dragons. That's the plan anyway; so far the paladin isn't high-enough level to actually cast Enlarge.

I just played one of those. Unfortunately, the campaign was set in a desert, so it didn't ever come up...

As an aside: chokepoints are more of a roleplaying thing in 5E than a tactical thing. What I mean by this is that usually the optimal tactic would be to just eat an opportunity attack and Overrun whoever is holding the chokepoint, but I wouldn't do that except for exceptionally well-trained and tactically-aware enemies like hobgoblins or fire giants. For the most part, dumb brutes like ogres, orcs, ropers, perytons, and tyrannosaurs will just attack whatever target is in front of them unless and until it turns out to be too painful to want to bother with; then they will probably just leave (if they can) instead of choosing a weaker target.

I agree about the T-Rex. Ogres, maybe. Orcs are intelligent and cruel enough to divert around the tank and go after softer targets in the back (while leaving an orc or two to keep the tank occupied). A roper will just grab anything it can reach, which could be be most of the party depending on the dungeon layout. And I wouldn't expect to fight perytons anywhere that bottlenecking is an issue.

I agree that you can reasonably expect to find cover in most places within 60 feet. But finding cover is different from approaching. I would argue that against an enemy with a ranged weapon, being able to approach within 20 feet without ever leaving cover should be the exception, not the rule. Might happen in some urban environments, but should not generally be counted on, especially if the ranged guy is deliberately working to hold the range open. For the most part, greataxe guy is going to have to take cover and also sneak. This is one reason why Stealth and Perception skills are good picks, in my opinion.

Unless the enemy is readying actions to attack, you don't need to worry about breaking cover, just maintaining it between turns. If you have ranged attackers on your side, then the enemy should be attempting to gain full cover between their turns, in order to limit your ranged attackers to one attack. That also means they probably aren't readying actions to attack (because if they have full cover, they shouldn't be able to see you break from cover). If the ranged guy is falling back, he'd better hope there's full cover within 30' or else you've just flushed him out for your ranged to full attack. Finding full cover within 30' is possible, but it's less likely than finding any cover within 60'.

Ideally, from what I've seem, it results in a complementary relationship between melee and ranged. Ranged PCs give enemy ranged something to worry about other than melee PCs, while melee PCs give enemy melee something to worry about other than the ranged PCs.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
If they don't sneak, the hobgoblins will hear them coming and have time to equip shields, etc. I think it's smarter to sneak. Even if they don't sneak, it will still take 20 rounds to move 600' through difficult terrain, by which time the fight may be over, even at only one attack per round. (Plus, the fights I've had like this have mostly happened at levels low enough that they only get one attack per round anyway.) Besides, why wouldn't it be the hobgoblins be readying their actions instead of vice versa? They've got 3/4 cover and there's more of them than there are PCs, and their job is to interdict the road--if PCs hide behind full cover I'd make the hobgoblins ready actions to scan the road and shoot anyone who shows themselves.

Who said these guys have Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert? I thought we were just talking about the general strengths of ranged combat, so I've actually assumed zero feats because I didn't want to stack the deck in my favor. (Specifically, I was thinking about a level 7 DX 18 shadow monk as the ranged attacker because she's the one who has most recently archery-dueled a squad of 7 hobgoblins.) With Sharpshooter this encounter is trivialized, even at level 2.

If they ready shields they're not shooting back at the ranged PCs. Besides, I never said anything about the melee coming upon them unprepared. Just not pin cushioned.

IME, its the border of a forest that would best constitute difficult terrain. Once you're past the edge, they're often not difficult to navigate at all (unless the ground itself is poor, which will vary by encounter).

I was assuming the hobgoblins are ducking below the barricade to gain full cover, meaning they couldn't ready actions (because they wouldn't be able to see the trigger happen). Part of this was my assumption that the ranged PCs have Sharpshooter, rendering their 3/4 cover useless. I assumed Sharpshooter in part because engaging in a 600' ranged battle without it would be a poor choice for the ranged PCs (3/4 cover plus long range means you'd have almost no chance of hitting anything). Without Sharpshooter, you're arguably better off engaging them in melee. If nothing else, it would have to be more interesting than a drawn out miss-fest.
 

I just played one of those. Unfortunately, the campaign was set in a desert, so it didn't ever come up...

It's still awesome in a desert. You just exploit your warhorse's 60' mobility to pew-pew things to death with cantrips. Another trick is to put on heavy armor and spend your own actions Dodging while the warhorse tramples things to death for up to 22 points of damage + proning per round. Enemies that try to attack the horse have to attack your AC 23 (plate armor + shield + Defense style + Shield of Faith) at disadvantage instead.
 

I was assuming the hobgoblins are ducking below the barricade to gain full cover, meaning they couldn't ready actions (because they wouldn't be able to see the trigger happen). Part of this was my assumption that the ranged PCs have Sharpshooter, rendering their 3/4 cover useless. I assumed Sharpshooter in part because engaging in a 600' ranged battle without it would be a poor choice for the ranged PCs (3/4 cover plus long range means you'd have almost no chance of hitting anything). Without Sharpshooter, you're arguably better off engaging them in melee. If nothing else, it would have to be more interesting than a drawn out miss-fest.

Having almost no chance of hitting anything is sort of the point of the barricade, but PCs are more like Special Forces than regular troops, and so PCs will do things the hobs don't expect, like hiding on every other round to gain advantage to offset the ranged disadvantage.

If the PCs have at least one Sharpshooter, the encounter is trivialized: the Sharpshooter PC will kill one hobgoblin every third round (needs a 13 or 14 to hit), until the hobgoblins learn not to stick their heads up at all. Then the melee guys can finish them off, if they haven't already surrendered.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Ranged is only stronger by default if the DM fails to exploit its weaknesses. Cover plays a large role in this regard (albeit, Sharpshooter reduces this issue by ignoring half and three quarters cover). Also, it's not a given if you're running a more dungeon oriented campaign, where encounter distances will frequently favor melee. Outside, however, unless your campaign world is a giant salt flat, there should be plenty of cover/concealment to exploit, assuming that your encounters start at ranges where ranged combat has the advantage. Most D&D worlds are fairly primitive, so outside of civilization things should be ancient and overgrown, offering plenty of cover opportunities.

Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert effectively remove every penalty for ranged combat except the ability to use a shield and amount of ammunition you carry. You know this. Cover, distance, disadvantage in ranged combat all removed by the two feats. This makes them far more versatile combatants able to bring their damage to bear in almost any circumstance far faster than melee. It's even easier to use Stealth and surprise targets. So as you gain levels and pick up the two feats that are common to ranged builds, you eventually have no real disadvantages.

Ranged combatants should weave in and out of cover. Rather than performing a suicide charge, melee should approach under cover. If your monsters are using tactics comparable to the red coats in the Revolutionary War, you're playing them sub-optimally. If they are not, then ranged attackers should have a hard time hitting them as they approach.

Ranged versus ranged. Melee usually approach using the dodge action or cover when they can. Ranged enemies don't get Sharpshooter usually, preventing the ranged enemy from having the same advantages as the ranged PC. Though I do custom make some NPCs with the advantages of Sharpshooter. Just because the melee is advancing using cover and the Dodge action doesn't equalize power. The ranged guy is hammering the enemy while ducking behind cover and capable of taking ready actions to hammer the enemy as soon as they show their face doing damage while the melee is taking his actions to use Dodge or weave in and out of cover.

While Crossbow Experts can melee, melee-specialists will typically out perform them. Shield users will be harder to hit, while two-handed weapon users will be doing more damage per hit.

More damage when they actually hit. The few rounds the ranged attackers get while the melee closes more than makes up for the damage.

Admittedly, ranged attackers have an easier time with flying opponents than melee attackers, but there are ways to mitigate this even without caster intervention. Magic items such a a Broom of Flying or Carpet of Flying can make Fly largely unnecessary (certain carpets are even faster than Fly). And flying attackers should be using cover just like other enemies. While getting your one readied attack as a ranged attacker is better than no attacks as melee without flight, it isn't much.

Agreed.

Then there are the advantages unique to melee. Some of the best damage enhancing items are Strength or melee-only items. Belt of Giant Strength. Flame Tongue Sword.

One of the few advantages is definitely the girdle of giant strength. Though Hussar has me thinking of building a str-based ranged attacker. We deem ranged weapons to be any weapon with a range entry, not just listed on the ranged table.

I mean sure, magic items are optional, but then so are feats. And without Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, a ranged-specialist is a lot less amazing. Negating the penalties for anything short of full cover and for firing while in melee is pretty huge for ranged builds.

Remove sharpshooter and GWM and everything is balanced again. Maybe casters are too strong, but maybe not.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think melee is weaker than range in the larger scope of things. In a white room (or salt flats) sure. But if you're putting melee at a disadvantage by starting typical encounters hundreds of feet apart, then you ought to be putting the range at a disadvantage by placing plenty of opportunities for cover in between. A road may be flat and open, but what about the hills or woods to either side of that road? Melee has its own strengths as well as weaknesses, just as ranged does. Which of those strengths are played to, and which weaknesses played against, will depend very much upon the campaign and even moreso upon the DM.

Melee is definitely weaker. Having run a few parties, the nastiest thing you can run in 5E is a ranged heavy dex-based group with Stealth. You gain surprise against practically everything and destroy it before they even get a chance to attack. You can even have your mage take Stealth, so your entire party can slink along quietly through dungeons at slow movement. Hard to do with big, heavy armor martials that need to enter melee range. Have your mage luring monsters out with minor illusion or dancing lights. It's like a walk through the forest on a warm spring morning through most dungeons.

Even the mighty dragons I complain about with melee are child's play to a ranged heavy group. If the dragon sees a ranged party, it might as well run. If it is a caster variant, it should cast invisibility on itself and leave saying, "Humanoid bowmen and ranged attackers. I'm out of here. They can have my treasure. I can find more." That's the difference between a group of focused melee martials and a group of ranged attackers. I feel bad for dragons against ranged groups. They have no way to protect themselves other than the DM making them a caster variant. Archer has them hammered before they even close to breath weapon range.

You remember my player that made a melee martial in our first campaign? Last two characters were a warlock/fighter eldritch blast user and a ranger/rogue archer. He is the min-maxer of the group. He knows where the power is after playing a melee martial in the first campaign.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert effectively remove every penalty for ranged combat except the ability to use a shield and amount of ammunition you carry. You know this. Cover, distance, disadvantage in ranged combat all removed by the two feats. This makes them far more versatile combatants able to bring their damage to bear in almost any circumstance far faster than melee. It's even easier to use Stealth and surprise targets. So as you gain levels and pick up the two feats that are common to ranged builds, you eventually have no real disadvantages.

I do recognize that those feats remove most ranged penalties, but you missed the two major disadvantages that they do not address (and which was largely my original point). Full cover and concealment. Depending on the frequency that those are encountered (and I would argue that any campaign that uses realistic encounter ranges should also have plenty of cover and concealment available) ranged attacks will be better or worse off.

Melee often doesn't have to deal with these factors because one can often circumvent them much more easily at point-blank range than from hundreds of feet away. Crossbow Expert does allow an archer to fight at point blank range, but at that point you're just a slightly weaker melee character (because melee will have either better AC or bigger damage dice). Plus, if you're readying actions to shoot the enemies if they poke their head out from behind cover, you're advancing at half the speed of the melee.

If we're talking Stealth, I would argue that the rogue is king. Not only do they get abilities that virtually guarantee they'll never fail, but sneak attack is devastating when used in conjunction with surprise (particularly for an assassin). Whenever my rogue player solo'd (usually with an NPC henchman), the rogue tried to sneak up on everything (and typically succeeded). It was a slaughter. Ironically, it was an ambush of sorts (summoning trap) that got her in the end. But I will grant you that Stealth is nice for ranged attackers, since they don't have to get as close.

More damage when they actually hit. The few rounds the ranged attackers get while the melee closes more than makes up for the damage.

That's heavily situational. In a dungeon crawl, most encounters will occur at ranges where the melee will be able to close immediately.

If the enemy hides behind total cover while the melee closes, then the ranged can do nothing but move or wait.

Heck, I've played in campaigns (in multiple editions) where the average encounter distance was 30 feet. That DM felt that ranged attacks were too powerful, and so he started encounters at shorter distances to make them less so.

There was another DM where we'd spend 99% of our time in open plains (I guess he didn't like making up terrain). Ranged options were very strong in those games. A friend of mind played as a 3.5 halfling ranger with a riding dog in one of that DM's games, and he was basically an unstoppable killing machine.

One of the few advantages is definitely the girdle of giant strength. Though Hussar has me thinking of building a str-based ranged attacker. We deem ranged weapons to be any weapon with a range entry, not just listed on the ranged table.

I agree with that assessment.

Melee is definitely weaker. Having run a few parties, the nastiest thing you can run in 5E is a ranged heavy dex-based group with Stealth. You gain surprise against practically everything and destroy it before they even get a chance to attack. You can even have your mage take Stealth, so your entire party can slink along quietly through dungeons at slow movement. Hard to do with big, heavy armor martials that need to enter melee range. Have your mage luring monsters out with minor illusion or dancing lights. It's like a walk through the forest on a warm spring morning through most dungeons.

Even the mighty dragons I complain about with melee are child's play to a ranged heavy group. If the dragon sees a ranged party, it might as well run. If it is a caster variant, it should cast invisibility on itself and leave saying, "Humanoid bowmen and ranged attackers. I'm out of here. They can have my treasure. I can find more." That's the difference between a group of focused melee martials and a group of ranged attackers. I feel bad for dragons against ranged groups. They have no way to protect themselves other than the DM making them a caster variant. Archer has them hammered before they even close to breath weapon range.

You remember my player that made a melee martial in our first campaign? Last two characters were a warlock/fighter eldritch blast user and a ranger/rogue archer. He is the min-maxer of the group. He knows where the power is after playing a melee martial in the first campaign.

In your campaign I have no doubt that range is more potent than melee. I've said as much in previous posts.

It will certainly be more true in campaigns which feature lots of flying enemies than campaigns which don't. However, I've known a number of DMs who would rather a dragon have an in-your-face beat down with the PCs rather than spend its time timidly skirmishing. From your comments, I understand you to be one of them (you just don't consider 5e dragons tough enough to do so without modification). In that type of campaign, ranged doesn't have any great advantage over melee in a dragon fight.

I don't think ranged > melee is universally true of 5e. Certainly, the DM doesn't have to let it be true. It will depend on a lot of factors that vary from campaign to campaign. Average encounter distance. The abundance of cover (especially full) and concealment. Magic items. The frequency of flying enemies. Whether encounters have open boundaries or closed (dungeon vs wilderness).

You like to use realistic encounter distances. Perfectly valid choice. But are you putting in a realistic amount of cover (including total cover) and concealment for melee and enemies to utilize? I'm skeptical, because an enemy behind total cover means little to no DPR for the ranged attacker. If the enemy pops out of cover to shoot, they can take their full attack and duck back behind total cover, while the ranged PC can take a single readied attack in retaliation. If the ranged of both sides just hide behind total cover in a stand off, its the melee that will decide the battle.
 


Fanaelialae

Legend
Unless he is a warlock, on which case he gets to make his full EB attack as usual, at the cost of his concentration.

I realize that casters are technically ranged, but that hasn't been the context in which I've been using the term. I typically use ranged synonymously with ranged weapon-user. Spellcasters are sufficiently different that I will refer to them as casters, because while there is some degree of overlap between what concerns ranged and casters, ultimately there are a great many differences as well. Ranged PCs (particularly longbow users) out-range many, if not most, spells. Unlike casters, ranged PCs can't simply lob an AOE at enemies behind total cover (such as a free-standing wall). So on and so forth...

While there can certainly be overlap, such as in the case of an EK archer, I feel that the distinction is sufficient to refer to them separately.

You are correct about warlocks. However, in that scenario, an enemy could use Stealth to prevent the warlock's readied action from triggering and thus potentially break his concentration, thereby denying him any attacks at all.
 

You are correct about warlocks. However, in that scenario, an enemy could use Stealth to prevent the warlock's readied action from triggering and thus potentially break his concentration, thereby denying him any attacks at all.

Sure, and that would be worth doing against any enemy: ranged, melee, or spellcaster. My favorite combats are the ones that play out in something other than pure round-by-round combat. If both sides give up on a straightforward assault and start sneaking around under total cover, setting ambushes on the battlefield and trying to localize the enemy without being localized... that, to me, is much better fun than rolling a whole bunch of dice. Unfortunately those kinds of combats are a real pain to run on a grid so I only ever do them in TotM... wish I had better tools.
 

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