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D&D 5E What is/should be the Ranger's "thing"?

But he gains more knowledge about different creatures as he progresses in level which represents him gaining knowledge as he adventures. He can't know everything at level one.
Normally this inability is modeled through knowledge/lore being a skill check with a DC, which a might be difficult for a 1st-level character but easier for a 10th-level character. There's no need for a specialization mechanic. The bard, the other "worldly" class, certainly never had one.

Ranger's are a niche class...
Why?

This edition of D&D was designed around story and that is where classes like the ranger really do fit. The DM is supposed to take in account of the classes that are involved in the party do his best to accommodate any class that has a specialty. It's also up to the player to pick a class that will fit what the DM has proposed.
On the contrary. As a story-driven role-playing game, D&D should accommodate as many stories as possible. If the system packages a class with a prescribed story, why should it be the players' responsibility to make that story work for them? Is it unreasonable for them to ask why the class is packaged with a prescribed story in the first place?
 

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Not sure how this translates mechanically, but, I think that if we pin down the archetype a bit, more will flow from that. For example, why couldn't favoured enemy be based on terrain type? Rangers start with a particular terrain, and, when facing anything from that terrain, gain bonuses on knowledge checks, tracking and social checks. That keeps the idea of "favoured enemy" but, makes it broad enough to be more applicable. As the ranger goes up levels, he gains more terrain types, and thus broader favoured enemy knowledge.

So, Jon Snow as a ranger has arctic terrain - any time he's dealing with "cold" creatures, he has bonuses. Tarzan and Mowgli both have jungle, and Tarzan might also have mountain terrain as well. Drizz't would have Underdark and possibly a couple of other terrains. Indiana Jones would likely have Underdark and Jungle terrains. ((Not sure if Indiana Jones counts as a ranger archetype, but, IMO, he's not far off either))

Would that work?
Favored terrain fits the archetype a lot better than favored enemy. It's pretty easy to see how all these characters have mastered a particular environment in a way that distinguishes them from other characters. (Aragorn a bit less so than the others, I think.) The concern with putting too much of the ranger's power in favored terrain is mechanical rather than thematic - it's again the problem that's come up a couple times in this thread of the character being "on" or "off" for entire adventures. I'd be far more inclined to keep favored terrain a minor feature and put as much of the ranger's utility as possible into broadly-applicable abilities, on the grounds that these characters are resourceful enough to do their thing pretty much anywhere. Tarzan is pretty handy on the streets and rooftops of Paris, after all.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
As far as archetypes go, I see rangers in Tarzan, Mowgli and Aragorn. Any character that can draw from Tolkein, Kipling and Burroughs deserves its own class AFAIC. :D

What differentiates rangers from barbarians is choice. A barbarian comes from a tribal culture on the fringes of "civilisation" (using scare quotes here because there's a bit of an implied cultural bigotry inherent here). A ranger doesn't though. A ranger comes from the "civilized" parts of the setting and chooses to live in the fringes. Aragorn was a king. Tarzan was Lord Greystoke. They live on the fringes, not because that's particularly home, but, because there is something about living on the fringe that appeals to them.

For me, the primary schtick of rangers is self sufficiency. Plunk a barbarian down in his home territory, and he'll do pretty well. Plunk a ranger down anywhere and he'll thrive. If you were organising an exploration into the wilderness, who would you rather have blazing your trail? A barbarian or a ranger? Me, I want that ranger.

Not sure how this translates mechanically, but, I think that if we pin down the archetype a bit, more will flow from that. For example, why couldn't favoured enemy be based on terrain type? Rangers start with a particular terrain, and, when facing anything from that terrain, gain bonuses on knowledge checks, tracking and social checks. That keeps the idea of "favoured enemy" but, makes it broad enough to be more applicable. As the ranger goes up levels, he gains more terrain types, and thus broader favoured enemy knowledge.

So, Jon Snow as a ranger has arctic terrain - any time he's dealing with "cold" creatures, he has bonuses. Tarzan and Mowgli both have jungle, and Tarzan might also have mountain terrain as well. Drizz't would have Underdark and possibly a couple of other terrains. Indiana Jones would likely have Underdark and Jungle terrains. ((Not sure if Indiana Jones counts as a ranger archetype, but, IMO, he's not far off either))

Would that work?

To me the difference between the barbarian and the ranger is the barbarian becomes a beast in the wild, the ranger learns of the wild and the beasts. That's why barbarians for civilized backgrounds (military shock trooper, dwarven berserkers and boodragers, mobboss enforcers) they are no better at the wild than the fighters, clerics, rogues, and wizards.

Barbarians in the wilderness are just apex predators. Nothing special. When someone bigger shows up (a dragon, a demon horde, a zombie infestation, hobgoblin army), some barbarians get killed and the survivors run (probably to the nearest town for the next adventure hook).

Rangers of any stripe, civilized, militarized, natural, religious, or wild, they study or at least know their stuff.

As for favored enemy, I see an easy houserule to let a ranger swap enemies for terrains and vice versa. I can understand why the PHB doesn't let you. Idiotproofing. It would be too easy to screw up the balance if the core rule let you 2 enemies, 2 terrains, or 1 enemy/1terrain. A player could make chooses that make a ranger who has no wilderness skills. A DM has more to worry about.

But for a wise group or an experienced DM, it's a good houserule. You can have your arctic/forest Night's Watch. Your beasts/forest wildmen and hunts. Your urban ranger with 4 humaniods (2 bonus languages!). Your fiend/forest night elf sentinels who take undead/dragons later in life. Etc etc
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
Okay. It's certainly possible to build a class around a mechanic. But two questions about this one. If it's just built around the favored enemy mechanic, (1) why does it have all this other woodcraft capability and flavor; and (2) why is it called the "ranger"? Seems like something of a bait-and-switch.

I didn't say it was "just" built around FE, but to answer your questions:

(1) The only reference to woodcraft in the text of the 1E Ranger can be found in this sentence, "Rangers are a sub-class of fighter who are adept at woodcraft, tracking, scouting, and infiltration and spying." Mostly this is nothing but flavor. As for actual, mechanical capabilities, only tracking and the ability to surprise and not be surprised more often could possibly be considered related to woodcraft, and neither depends on being in the woods or any other natural environment. So, not sure what you mean by "all this".

(2) It was called "the Ranger" as an obvious reference to Aragorn. For the same reason, it was given tracking and proficiency with ESP-related magic items. It was an attempt, within the bounds of the rules of D&D, to create a class that resembled Aragorn, and not, as you seem to expect, some "woodsman archetype". Thus the D&D Ranger was born. You can argue that the class was unsuccessful in sufficiently representing an Aragorn-like figure. I certainly would. You could also argue that the FE feature, along with certain others (spellcasting for one), was clumsily cobbled on to the class without really having too much to do with Aragorn, or without much improving the resemblance. My opinion, however, is that at that point the D&D Ranger became its own thing, an amalgamation of all its parts. The question I've been trying to answer is what makes the D&D Ranger unique as a class. Its resemblance, or lack thereof, to literary characters and archetypes is pretty much irrelevant to that discussion. Sorry I've been so round about in making that point.

Could you clarify what you're saying here? Because elsewhere, including directly below, you seem to acknowledge that all the pre-D&D woodcrafty characters we've been talking to do belong to an archetype. Are you simply saying that this archetype has not always received the label of "ranger"?

I acknowledge that there seems to be a usually rather menacing archetype found in certain literature, particularly fairy-tales, that I would be tempted to call "the Huntsman". Bumppo may align with this, and I can certainly see it in Aragorn, particularly in his character establishment. Possibly related is this American idea of the frontiersman that Bumppo seems to embody, and that Aragorn may have inherited a portion of. These influences were distilled through Aragorn into the D&D Ranger and combined with rules that were created for Fighting-men, Magic-users, Clerics, and Thieves, from whence derives the ranger character-class archetype, a concept with limited applicability outside of FRPG discussions. It seems strange to me then to speak of a "ranger archetype" that embraces the literary and historic influences on the class, or at least some of them, but actually rejects the game-mechanics that made the class what it is.

Grendel didn't kill his men until after Beowulf had come to Heorot to kill the monster (and Beowulf seems to have deliberately let them die). Beowulf was motivated to seek out and fight Grendel by a lust for fame. He had no intention of finding Grendel's lair, or going out into the wilderness at all -- his plan was to kill Grendel at Heorot.

If I remember correctly, Grendel was universally despised. Beowulf wasn't just going out and killing random people to get famous. He needed to kill a hate-object.

He fought and beat Grendel through superior strength rather than special knowledge of the monster's weaknesses.

And yet he didn't use the same tactics with the dragon. If grappling was his go-to tactic for defeating monsters you'd think he'd use it in all cases, in lieu of any "special knowledge", that is.

And when Grendel got away, he did not track him across the moor (not that following a blood trail like that would have required great skill in any case), but rather was led to the lair by a party of Danes who already knew where it was.

And yet he entered the lake. He left the overworld, the world of men, and descended alone into the world of monsters below the lake's surface. Now that I think of it, I might give Beowulf the Underdark as his favored terrain. :)

See, I think that would be a terrible idea. Medusa was a monster that Perseus pretty definitely only fought once.

Furthermore, Perseus doesn't display any of the woodcraft of the ranger class. So, even assuming he should have medusa as a favored enemy, this just raises the question again of why the favored enemy ability should be associated with those other skills.

This is what I don't understand. You're giving primacy to the wood-craftiness of the "ranger class", but rejecting its favored enemy ability. It seems arbitrary when they are both part of the class. Besides, I wasn't presenting Perseus as a type of "the ranger". I was attempting to explain how I think FE could be used to express a character concept of a medusa slayer. To answer the question you've raised, however, FE is only associated with the Ranger's other skills because the class brings them together. It's part of what gives the D&D Ranger its particular flavor, which I think was my point to begin with.

That it doesn't define him. He is called Halfelven, the Mariner, and the Evening Star, not the Dragon Slayer. His lineage, his ship, and his Silmaril define him far more than his fight with Ancalagon.

This is a matter of opinion. I see his return in that battle and his slaying of the dragon as a manifestation in the world of the heroic potential that otherwise he expresses by going into the West, or leaving the world entirely. It's a defining moment.

It sounds like you're saying you don't think it's important to ask why characters are doing what they're doing. But I know you're not saying that. Right?

I'm saying that every decision a character makes need not refer back to a single feature of its class, no matter how fundamental to the class that feature may be.

On the other hand, the archetypal hunter is generally familiar with everything that lives in the wilderness. Very seldom do you see the grizzled buckskin-clad woodsman kneel down with his knotted muscles, carefully examine a set of tracks with his steely eyes, and then speak in his clipped, laconic growl: "Sorry, don't know this one, not my specialty."

Not sure about the "archetypal hunter", but you hear an actual hunter frequently referred to as a "deer hunter", a "duck hunter", or a "big-game hunter". Are there really people out there who are equally skilled at hunting everything, and if so do they excel at hunting a particular animal above the abilities of those who specialize?
 

Hussar

Legend
I dunno about rangers, but, if I were the "duck hunter" I'd kill that damn sniggering dog. :D

[video]https://youtu.be/g1QCbXCezNc[/video]
 
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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
I dunno about rangers, but, if I were the "duck hunter" I'd kill that damn sniggering dog. :D

[video]https://youtu.be/g1QCbXCezNc[/video]
Ranger.
ranger.jpg
 

The only reference to woodcraft in the text of the 1E Ranger can be found in this sentence, "Rangers are a sub-class of fighter who are adept at woodcraft, tracking, scouting, and infiltration and spying." Mostly this is nothing but flavor.
I think it relevant to note that this is the very first sentence of the class description. And also noteworthy: nowhere is there any mention of enemy specialization. This tells me a lot about how Gygax himself defined the class conceptually. If his mechanical implementation fell short of the mark -- well, it'd hardly be the only time that happened in 1E.

As for actual, mechanical capabilities, only tracking and the ability to surprise and not be surprised more often could possibly be considered related to woodcraft, and neither depends on being in the woods or any other natural environment.
Well, first of all, that's not quite accurate: the tracking improves when you're outdoors, and druidic magic certainly also qualifies as "related to woodcraft". Secondly, you say that "only" these abilities could be considered related to woodcraft, but the 1E ranger only has seven unique abilities: (1) a damage bonus against giants; (2) surprise; (3) tracking; (4) druid spells; (5) magic-user spells; (6) scrying; and (7) attracting followers. That's three out of seven already, and you and I both seem to agree implicitly that (5), (6), and (7) were silly and ought to be discarded. And thirdly, for gameplay reasons already covered in this thread, the ranger's abilities really shouldn't depend on being in the woods.

My opinion, however, is that at that point the D&D Ranger became its own thing, an amalgamation of all its parts. The question I've been trying to answer is what makes the D&D Ranger unique as a class. Its resemblance, or lack thereof, to literary characters and archetypes is pretty much irrelevant to that discussion. Sorry I've been so round about in making that point.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Is there any other core class that's "unique" in the way you describe? Does the fighter or rogue or barbarian have any distinctive ability that does not resemble the literary characters and archetypes upon which the class is based? Ought they to? Is the barbarian a lesser class because all its abilities are pretty recognizably the common denominator of Thor, Hercules, Cú Chulainn, and Conan? Would it be a good idea to give the barbarian, I dunno, let's say a breath weapon, to make the class more unique? Could we then say, "Conan may not breathe fire, but in D&D, barbarians breathe fire, and Conan is irrelevant to that"?

The closest another class comes to having an ability unique to D&D, I'd say, is Vancian magic. But at bottom that's just a mechanical implementation of the concept of "magic", which of course is ubiquitous among literary mages. Anyone writing a mage class would have to find some rules for magic, and since magic doesn't actually exist and it works very differently in different stories, there's not really any guide for a "right" way to do it. So the arbitrariness here is a necessity. It's not analogous to the uniqueness of the favored enemy ability, or our hypothetical barbarian breath weapon.

In short, I don't think D&D is trying to be unique in its class system. On the contrary, I think it's trying to be as universal as possible. And I think, given the game's open-ended nature and its position in the market as the go-to fantasy role-playing game, this is the correct approach. It makes sense for Final Fantasy to say, "In our universe there are these special warriors called 'dragoons' who are defined by their distinctive leaping spear attack", because Final Fantasy is only trying to tell one story and trying to make that story unique to their brand. But D&D is trying to provide a platform for players to tell their own stories, in their own worlds. The core rules should provide for just that: the common core of fantasy tropes. The uniqueness of the stories should come from DMs' imaginations and campaign setting guides.

These influences were distilled through Aragorn into the D&D Ranger and combined with rules that were created for Fighting-men, Magic-users, Clerics, and Thieves, from whence derives the ranger character-class archetype, a concept with limited applicability outside of FRPG discussions. It seems strange to me then to speak of a "ranger archetype" that embraces the literary and historic influences on the class, or at least some of them, but actually rejects the game-mechanics that made the class what it is.
If we're going to restrict the discussion to the FRPG context, ranger-archetype classes still very seldom have a favored enemy ability. Outside of D&D, I can only think of one game that does: Heroes of Might and Magic 5. Final Fantasy's ranger doesn't have one in any of its incarnations that I've played. The Warcraft franchise's rangers and hunters don't have one. Torchlight's vanquisher and outlander don't have one.

Heck, even within D&D itself... what's Drizzt's favored enemy? Drow, I guess, though his archnemesis is human so maybe not? Minsc's? Canonically, it changes from gnolls to vampires between games! Belkar's? Not a clue... humans, perhaps? For all these guys, it just doesn't come up that often in the story. That tells me something about how important favored enemy is to the ranger class. Can you imagine a wizard character whose ability to cast spells never came up?

If I remember correctly, Grendel was universally despised. Beowulf wasn't just going out and killing random people to get famous. He needed to kill a hate-object.
If Grendel is universally despised, Beowulf's opinion is hardly distinctive, is it?

And yet he didn't use the same tactics with the dragon. If grappling was his go-to tactic for defeating monsters you'd think he'd use it in all cases, in lieu of any "special knowledge", that is.
Are you implying that fighters and barbarians must always use the same tactic because they don't have favored enemy?

This is what I don't understand. You're giving primacy to the wood-craftiness of the "ranger class", but rejecting its favored enemy ability. It seems arbitrary when they are both part of the class.
One shows up in the first sentence of the First Edition flavor text, and is shared by all the class' archetypal relatives. The other doesn't and isn't. That's not an arbitrary distinction. That's precisely the distinction we should be making in determining what identifies the class.

To answer the question you've raised, however, FE is only associated with the Ranger's other skills because the class brings them together. It's part of what gives the D&D Ranger its particular flavor, which I think was my point to begin with.
This is what's arbitrary. And circular. "The ranger has the abilities it has because it has them."

Not sure about the "archetypal hunter", but you hear an actual hunter frequently referred to as a "deer hunter", a "duck hunter", or a "big-game hunter". Are there really people out there who are equally skilled at hunting everything, and if so do they excel at hunting a particular animal above the abilities of those who specialize?
What is this? Realism in D&D? By realistic logic, every class should have favored enemy. No fighter or rogue is really going to be equally talented against every foe, either. There is nothing distinctive about the fact that the hunter has expertise with one animal over another. That's just a boring universal of professions. What is distinctive is the fact that the hunter has expertise with animals. That's what the class should emphasis.
 
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Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth (He/him)
I think it relevant to note that this is the very first sentence of the class description. And also noteworthy: nowhere is there any mention of enemy specialization. This tells me a lot about how Gygax himself defined the class conceptually. If his mechanical implementation fell short of the mark -- well, it'd hardly be the only time that happened in 1E.

This raises the question from where does a class derive its identity? Is it the flavor-text which, as is to be expected, is always presented in the form of a preamble tipped in at the beginning of the class description? Or does it come from the mechanics, which dictate how the class actually feels and is played? I'm giving preference to the latter because I think that's what makes the class what it is. The fluff, in contrast, doesn't have any real effect on the game at all.

Considering the importance you give to primacy of position, however, perhaps it is worth noting that among the actual mechanical attributes of the 1E Ranger, the first that is mentioned is the bonus to damage against giant-class humanoids, the 1E Ranger's favored enemies.

Well, first of all, that's not quite accurate: the tracking improves when you're outdoors,

Yes, but the Ranger's tracking indoors is still better than anyone else's.

and druidic magic certainly also qualifies as "related to woodcraft".

I'm not sure how spells of any sort qualify as woodcraft. Certainly none of the woodsy types you've been saying the class must emulate are known for using magic as the source for their mastery of the environment. They all seem to be rather mundane woodsmen.

Secondly, you say that "only" these abilities could be considered related to woodcraft, but the 1E ranger only has seven unique abilities: (1) a damage bonus against giants; (2) surprise; (3) tracking; (4) druid spells; (5) magic-user spells; (6) scrying; and (7) attracting followers.

Only 1, 2, and 3 are unique to the Ranger. 4 is available to Druids, 5 and 6 are available to Magic-users, and 7 is available to every class, AFAIK.

That's three out of seven already, and you and I both seem to agree implicitly that (5), (6), and (7) were silly and ought to be discarded.

Why do you think I would agree with that? Why should the Ranger have druid spells and not magic-user spells? What's wrong with being able to use scrying objects, considering the connection to Aragorn that this cultivates? And, lastly, why oughtn't the Ranger to attract followers? It is, after all, a sub-class of Fighter. It wouldn't make much sense for the Ranger to attain the title of Lord at 10th level and have no followers whatsoever. I'm not sure why you are ascribing these opinions to me.

And thirdly, for gameplay reasons already covered in this thread, the ranger's abilities really shouldn't depend on being in the woods.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that woodcraft is the Ranger's "thing", but that this shouldn't depend on being in the woods, by which I think you mean the Ranger's favored terrain. Is that correct?

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

Unfortunately we're not getting anywhere because either I'm not very good at articulating what I mean, or you're intentionally misunderstanding me. I'll try to be more clear. I'm asking what makes the D&D Ranger unique as a class when compared to other D&D classes. What sets it apart from the other classes? What can it do that the other classes cannot?

I'm not asking what makes the D&D Ranger unique compared to so-called rangers in other games or other media.

The problem as I see it is that a Rogue can put its Expertise in Survival and be better at tracking than a Ranger can. The Fighter by being proficient is just as good as the Ranger. Without changing those classes, what does the Ranger have left? My answer was Favored Enemy, which I think fits nicely with what I see as the Ranger's back-story. If you don't like the narrative that having a favored enemy implies then you are free to rationalize it in any way you like. Or if you want to play an outdoorsy type character, but don't want to have Favored Enemy as a class feature, you could play a Rogue or a Fighter and take skills that reflect woodcraft.

Of course the Ranger could have some entirely new mechanic to make it more effective at whatever you think its "thing" is, and there have been a lot of good suggestions in this thread to that effect, but the reason I've focused on FE is that out of those three original abilities that set the Ranger apart, only FE hasn't been co-opted by other classes, so it makes sense to me to strengthen that, rather than try to make the Ranger best at what other classes can do almost as good.

By realistic logic, every class should have favored enemy.

I suggested up-thread that FE could be made available as a feat or as a racial trait, and this wouldn't necessarily step on the Ranger's toes because it's unlikely that other characters would focus on the same creatures.

There is nothing distinctive about the fact that the hunter has expertise with one animal over another.

There is if no other class has the same expertise.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Woodcraft. Smoodcraft

I've played desert rangers who could create sandclouds and dustbeasts, arctic rangers who could walk on snow swiftly and hunt with ice monsters, and coastal rangers who could breath and walk on water.

As for FE, I think it was intentional for them to have FE be "full strength" and 1st level for dipping. If FE was a feat, the ranger would have to adjusted a bit to get more at level 1.
 

fuindordm

Adventurer
If we're looking for consistency across most editions, the only class ability absolutely unique to the ranger is Favored Enemy, but its potency varies widely.

Averaging over all editions, FE has been the main source of extra damage, with fighting styles (e.g. 2 weapons or weapon specialization) a secondary source. So if we're still talking about "what makes a ranger a ranger" then FE is part of that, but I would argue and have argued that its past implementations have been flawed.

What the ranger needs is a way to deliver extra damage reliably in combat, preferably in a manner that makes them play differently from a fighter. The barbarian has this (rage). The paladin has this (smite). The rogue has this (sneak attack). The ranger needs to be a hunter, and I think that it would benefit from a version of FE that requires the player to study the enemy and learn its weaknesses.

Other abilities commonly given to the ranger but not unique are:

* Stealth/perception advantage, delivered through surprise mechanic or skills.
* Wilderness advantage, including tracking
* Minor spellcasting
* Animal followers (1e ranger lord might attract animals, not just humanoid followers)

If the ranger is considered a martial class first and foremost, then it needs an effective FE-like ability so that it plays a unique combat role in the team environment.

The combination of minor, non-unique abilities can be achieved in a variety of ways. I can make a "paladin" by multiclassing fighter and cleric, with a dash of something else and/or appropriate feats. I can make a "ranger" by multiclassing and appropriate skill choices too. We've seen this debate over and over, and D&D runs just as well under a three-class system (fighter/expert/caster) as under a 13-class system. How many classes you want, and how specific you want them to be, is purely a matter of taste and really not worth arguing about.
 

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