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Cultural Appropriation in role-playing games (draft)

Umbran I only brought up tone because you were advocating the utility of shaming and guilting people. You seemed to be making the claim that using cultural appropriation as a bludgeon was effective (in response to me saying it tends to result in bludgeoning or confusion).

I am not going to get into a debate over fallacies, but I think here discussion of tone is relevant. also in the post of mine you quoted,I was talking about your tone specifically, not the tone of people invoking cultural appropriation. I was talking about what seemed to be an assumption by you that Si was arguing in bad faith.

i am not dismissing cultural appropriation over tone. I do think it's usefulness is something worth debating though. I also think what effect it has matters.
 
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se we are responsible* for making things better, and are generally falling down on the job.

Now, we can have a discussion of tone, in terms of what strategies are best for reaching an audience. I made some comments to just that early in the thread, in my feedback to Grumpy. However, that doesn't touch the basic validity (or lack thereof) of the position. To conflate them is basically saying, 'I don't think we should talk about that topic, as it makes me uncomfortable." As I noted before - there *will* be unpleasant feelings here. This is hard, and a big humble pill we need to swallow. But the side effects to us are not the central issue.




*In saying this, I note the difference between being "responsible" and being "accountable". We, as individuals, may be largely innocent of the major sins, but it falls in our laps to help make things better, regardless.

Not what I am saying at all. Me critiquing an idea or concept is not saying it shouldn't be discussed. Nor is it rooted in me being uncomfortable (I am not). Same goes for holding the position that an open and respectful dialogue is better than a hostile one that relies on shaming. People are free to say and do what they want here. But others are free to question key assumption. When an idea like cultural appropriation is introduced into a conversation, it is fair to question it, to question how well it applies. That isn't about discomfort (personally I welcome voices that disagree with me). I have already listed my reasons for holding these positions, so I won't repeat them here.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Sure, and pointing out logical fallacies in an argument is addressing the form of the argument rather than its substance.

My point was that the idea behind CA is to create some new sin demanding redress, to invent a category of compensable harm. And in my experience, that's the only way I've seen it used so far. Nobody's obliged to be nice to me, of course, but when, as a practical matter, people are devising new ways to make an enemy out of me (or us) or cast me (or us) as some oppressor, then I'm not terribly interested in offering the best advice on how to sharpen the knives aimed at me (or us). (This is all rhetorical).

And maybe that's NOT what's going on. Maybe there is a wrong that demands redress. But from my "lived experience" that's not the case. It appears to me to be the presumption of guilt based on charges alone, and not a demonstration of harm done, damages tallied, and proof given.

In essence I don't take for granted that CA exists, exists in such a way that necessarily harms anyone, that any CA done is a substantial contributor to systemic oppression, that any harm done outweighs any benefits such that compensation is fair/reasonable/necessary, nor from whom such compensation should be taken.

It's a category of grievances and unsubstantiated charges. And, IMO, it's not tone policing to say "Hey wait a minute, you can't jump straight to liability and compensation; charges have been levied but the case hasn't been made." Nor is that a shutdown of the conversation. If anything it's at least the idea that assertions ought to be proved and counter-arguments entertained.
 

I thought about including "tone policing" in the column but decided not to because it would have made it too long.
I realize that the column creates barriers - I more or less say strong fences make for good neighbors. I am not remotely a white nationalist and I fully realize those barriers can be a problem but I see all the other options as worse. Be it Taylor Swift watching people twerking or Bruce Cordell trying to include Native Americans in RPGS, these things will always go off the rails, they will always fail and do more damage than they will help.
 

I thought about including "tone policing" in the column but decided not to because it would have made it too long.
I realize that the column creates barriers - I more or less say strong fences make for good neighbors. I am not remotely a white nationalist and I fully realize those barriers can be a problem but I see all the other options as worse. Be it Taylor Swift watching people twerking or Bruce Cordell trying to include Native Americans in RPGS, these things will always go off the rails, they will always fail and do more damage than they will help.

I just want to be clear, I am not accusing you at all of being a white nationalist. And I am not accusing you of being a bigot. I merely made the point that white nationalists have easily appropriated parts of this argument and I think there is a good reason why: it helps create more barriers between cultures and people. I don't personally think such barriers are a plus. Maybe in the short term they do reduce discomfort, and tension, but I've always believed its important for people to interact, exchange and share culture and be open. Saying that Taylor Swift can't twerk or Bruce Cordell can't write about native americans because they are white, seems like a rule of thumb that would choke widespread integration and understanding of different cultures. Certainly if Taylor swift uses twerking in a way that is insulting or deliberately mocking black people, that is not a good thing. And if Bruce Cordell is insulting in his handling of Native Americans, it is fair to criticize. But to completely prohibit people from attempting to share culture, whether it be music, art or history, seems like a pretty poisonous idea to me.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It makes us unknowable to each other.

At the heart of the constructed view of the world that generates the "cultural appropriation" meme, runs the highly racist idea that each person is completely unknowable to each other. That idea hides behind words like "diversity" and "authentic". It shows up in ideas like: "You just can't understand what it is like to be a woman." or "You can't understand what it is like to be black.". It seeks to exaggerate and highlight our differences rather than what we have in common. It emphasizes not that we are more alike than different, but that we are more different than alike.

Nineteenth and twentieth century racialists (not all of whom were necessarily promoting racial hatred, even if hatred was the inevitable and most visible consequence) used to argue that there was an essential national character to each race of mankind which was inescapable. You could take a person out of his environment, but his inherited national traits and tendencies would still be inescapable.

Now the inheritors of that same logic no longer speak of inescapable national traits, but will speak of an inescapable and unique racial experience which everyone on the basis of their race will still have. It amounts to the same thing in new language. There is this idea that a person with dark skin, raised in suburban New Hampshire to a well to do family inherently has by virtue of their skin color an 'African' experience which is distinct from and unknowable by anyone who hasn't the proper melanin and that on that ground alone has more in common with other dark skinned people than he does with his fairer skinned peers that he ate lunch with in high school. Conversely, a person of fair skin, who grows up in Africa, speaks African languages, and who wrecked his car by hitting a Kudu, because of his fair skin still has a distinctly 'European' experience which makes him unable to understand or share in darker skinned experience.

The idea ultimately is that we are so different because of our race or what ever group we are said to belong to, that it is impossible to walk a mile in each others shoes. Whites inherently have privilege and cannot truly understand oppression or speak of oppression authentically. Blacks inherently are victims and cannot truly speak from a place of privilege. No person can truly understand anyone else, because there is no common human experience. No one's experiences crosses the lines. No one is able to imagine on the basis of their own suffering the sufferings or joys of others. Even the claim to empathize with and share a common experience with someone outside or your group is called hate speech.
This theory has it that an inner city white kid inherently has more in common with a rural white kid or a suburban white kid, than he has with inner city peers of a different race. Suburban black kids have more in common with inner city black kids than they do with their suburban peers. In short, your race remains your destiny under this theory, and diversity is counted not according to life experiences, viewpoints, philosophies or anything else, but can be tagged by race alone.

Ultimately, this new racism is the same as the old racism. The same stereotypes are in play. Black suit wearing businessmen aren't authentic voices; real authentic black voices are criminals. "White men can't jump". Mexicans like spicy food. Asians are goofy glasses wearing dorks. And so on and so forth. Only this actually demeaning stereotyping isn't counted as damnable "cultural appropriation" as long as "authentic" "well-intentioned" people do it, where as non-hateful exploration of other cultures is - regardless of your intention - accounted hate speech.

Lying behind all this lie is a bit of Newspeak twisting of the word identity so that it means both itself and its opposite. We now have people using the word "identity" both for the distinctive thing that makes you unique, and for the non-distinctive thing which makes you a member of a class or group. When we identity people now, we know longer point to what makes them an individual, but to a long list of group memberships as if merely knowing something about ones group membership told us more about the individual than knowing the individual did.

Why should being black be like anything, and really is it like anything? Just as intelligent black man could be dismissed by 19th century racial movements not as disproof of the theory that blacks could not be intelligent, but simply as an outlier that didn't represent the overall pattern of his race, so modern racists dismiss men of the same character - or really anyone of any group that doesn't fit their stereotype - as being inauthentic and non-representative. Today we've reached the point we no longer are pointing out the outlier to dismiss the theory, because the theory has become undismissable and unquestionable. Today the outlier is celebrated precisely to mark them as an outlier, and when that person says anything remotely to question the theory, this is proven by the fact that they are easily dismissed as inauthentic.

And they'll do this even if the person unquestionably shares the life experiences that supposedly make the group unknowable and distinctive. If you lack the stereotype, if you don't mouth the expected rote opinions, you aren't an "authentic voice".

But it's noteworthy who the "authentic voices" are said to be. If you were cynical you'd say that the "authentic voices" are being carefully chosen by privileged groups to further their own privilege and influence.

My brother was closely acquainted with Comanche medicine man. Full blood. Not this 1/16th crap where 15 of the persons ancestors were white and yet he thinks he's got exclusive title to be the spokesperson for native culture. You'd think this would be an unquestionably authentic voice of his people. Regarding sports teams adopting names like Braves and Indians and the like, his opinion was that the White people were counting coup. That they defeated the red men in battle, and so it was to be expected. If they had won, they would have done the same thing out of very much the same impulse. Indeed, you can see the same impulse when native Americans put on the jackets of the US Cavalry soldiers. His idea was that the white people didn't count coup on us because they despised Indians. There is no honor in counting coup on something pathetic. They counted coup because they wanted to share in the bravery and strength of their enemy. That isn't to say that he thought there weren't real injustices and real problems out there, but he was convinced this whole thing regarding sports teams was a controversy imposed on the Native Americans by people who wanted to make themselves feel good and not something most of them really cared about. And if you go looking, you'll find other voices in the Native American communities saying much the same thing. Why don't we engage those voices? Are only angry voices worth engaging, and only if they are angry about the things we want them to be angry about?

At best, "cultural appropriation" is about trivializing justice down to holding a few easily held opinions about things that don't matter much, and then feeling good about yourself - like some Ave Maria repeated endlessly to absolve yourself of not actually changing anything. At worst, it's the stealth recreation of every important point of 19th century racism either by the cultural inheritors of those views or perversely by the inheritors of the people who had those views imposed on them, clutching the very demeaning views to their chests as if they were literal truths. Because it's there 'identity' or something.

I'm inclined to think it's a lot of both.

You note later: "I merely made the point that white nationalists have easily appropriated parts of this argument and I think there is a good reason why: it helps create more barriers between cultures and people."

You are mostly right except for one point. The white supremacists didn't appropriate parts of this argument. They invented it. The relationship between the ideas is the other way around. The SJW's appropriated this argument from the white supremacists. It's fundamentally accepting the world view of the KKK or the Neo-Nazi's as correct, and then in the midst of that hateful world view trying to construct some sort of moral framework. But it fundamentally can't work, because the framework itself is hateful and twisted. The ultimate end of pushing this crap on people will be to increase hatred and feelings of alienation and to try to push people into tribes. Because once you deny that people have a basis for understanding one another, and deny that they belong to a common community, then you've basically denied that they have any reason to care for one another. That's ultimately the reason why if you look not even very hard at the SJW community, if you even only look as mainstream as say The Guardian, you'll find that preaching hatred of the other is conventional within the community.
 
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Bagpuss

Legend
Certainly if Taylor swift uses twerking in a way that is insulting or deliberately mocking black people, that is not a good thing.

Which she didn't.

And if Bruce Cordell is insulting in his handling of Native Americans, it is fair to criticize.

Which it seems he didn't either.

But to completely prohibit people from attempting to share culture, whether it be music, art or history, seems like a pretty poisonous idea to me.

Agreed.
 


Which it seems he didn't either.


.

I wasn't saying he did. I was just making the point that it's fair for folks to weigh in with opinions on the matter once something is published. Basically saying a designer should be free to borrow cultural elements and that it's reasonable to react if the treatment is insulting or offensive. I think holding up cultural appropriation as a gate that bars him from trying in the first place or as a fuzzy rubric of how problematic content is, is a much worse way to go than just judging its cultural sensitivity.
 
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t

t

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You note later: "I merely made the point that white nationalists have easily appropriated parts of this argument and I think there is a good reason why: it helps create more barriers between cultures and people."

You are mostly right except for one point. The white supremacists didn't appropriate parts of this argument. They invented it. The relationship between the ideas is the other way around. The SJW's appropriated this argument from the white supremacists. It's fundamentally accepting the world view of the KKK or the Neo-Nazi's as correct, and then in the midst of that hateful world view trying to construct some sort of moral framework. But it fundamentally can't work, because the framework itself is hateful and twisted. The ultimate end of pushing this crap on people will be to increase hatred and feelings of alienation and to try to push people into tribes. Because once you deny that people have a basis for understanding one another, and deny that they belong to a common community, then you've basically denied that they have any reason to care for one another. That's ultimately the reason why if you look not even very hard at the SJW community, if you even only look as mainstream as say The Guardian, you'll find that preaching hatred of the other is conventional within the community.

I don't think this is true at all. I think it may play into to the hands of bigoted people but I see these as two very different things and see no causal link leading from white supremacy to CA in history. To me it seems the intent is sincere. There may be bad actors but I am not going to project motives onto everyone who subscribes to cultural appropriation. Certainly not going to lump them in with neo-nazis (that is just as much of a rhetorical bludgeon as CA itself).

I do think Cultural Appropriation as it has come to be understood, leads to people being more divided and locked inside their own cultural paradigm though. But I don't believe that is the goal or that it arises from a belief in racial essentialism (or supremacy).
 

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