Cultural Appropriation in role-playing games (draft)

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

But I do there is a direct line of influence, a descent through modification between the 19th century writers and the modern movement along multiple lines right back to Condorcet, and from that you can see everything from White Man's Burden to Identity Politics and how different writers shaped that thought to where we are now.

I had to look up Condorcet, as I was not familiar with the name – and I am not certain what to make of your use of his name here.

In any event, while I disagree with your statements I respect your position and the passion with which you argue your case.

Bruce Cordell wrote the Thunder Plains and Elizabeth Bear in her column Writing the Other (where she asserts that white people writing for minorities is “simple”) and even in her story Shoggoths in Bloom, where she writes a main character who is a black man; in these cases, white people are writing stories which purport to “speak” for members of minority cultures. I advocated caution and that restraint equals good manners. They are far deeper into “the honkey’s burden” territory than I am.

Leaving aside the specific writers that armed the feelings with ideas and language, I generally proposing the following:

I have no inherent issues with these conclusions, merely where you eventually go with them.

c) The same tempting beliefs that led people to propose white supremacy or male supremacy, are still present in people who are arguing against those beliefs.

This is probably an accident of language and the use of political terminology. I am not concerned that a member of a minority group will somehow make my life less white. However, I fully acknowledge the complaints raised by members of minority groups that “entitled” white people are ripping them off. At the very least, as a matter of etiquette, to say nothing of being decent human beings, we should stop doing that.

In my experience people concerned about "cultural appropriation" tend to be mostly authoritarians who want to dictate that everyone in the world live by their rules, no argument.

That is overstating the case by a considerable amount. The fact I posted the columns - original and revised - here for comments is a statement I wanted dialogue, if not expressly asking for an argument.

 

[Raloc]

Well it wasn't directed at you - more so at the perpetually-offended types that bandy around "cultural appropriation" as a serious problem, when it's largely them creating the problem in the first place. Not to mention how ridiculous it is that these people feel the need to "white knight" for people who never asked them to.

 

[Celebrim]

I had to look up Condorcet, as I was not familiar with the name – and I am not certain what to make of your use of his name here.

He's the founder of Progressivism. Pretty much any "progressive" philosophy, including some regressive retro-feudal philosophies that think of themselves as "progressive", has its roots in the think of Condorcet.

They are far deeper into “the honkey’s burden” territory than I am.

There is that racism again. Also, you don't even appear to be using the term correctly.

This is probably an accident of language and the use of political terminology. I am not concerned that a member of a minority group will somehow make my life less white. However, I fully acknowledge the complaints raised by members of minority groups that “entitled” white people are ripping them off. At the very least, as a matter of etiquette, to say nothing of being decent human beings, we should stop doing that.

I don't even know where you got that from what you quoted, but do you realize how racist the idea of "making my life less white" is? I mean, why is that even a thing and what do you mean by that? What are these "white things" you are referring to anyway? I get that you are saying that you aren't concerned with it, whatever that would mean, but what things were you thinking of as "white", and would you ever occur to you to write a sentence about making a the life of a minority group "less brown"?

What I actually wrote was that particularly if you view "white" and "brown" or "black" or whatever as distinctive and exclusive categories, then it is very tempting to think that for whatever reason you belong to the superior one. This is particularly tempting to do whenever someone asserts otherwise and that they are in the superior category. It's instinctive. As such, you see a lot of oppressed groups, but particularly racially oppressed groups, asserting the moral and intellectual superiority of whatever their group is compared to the white group. Often ironically this will be asserted on the basis of white racism which brings us back to that whole racial essentialist idea, that ones race is ones inescapable destiny. And you see parallel ideas arising with some feminists. And so forth.

Whereas on the other hand, if you are inclined to think that race "isn't a thing", and rather that despite differences in peoples melanin and other outward markers, we all have basically the same capacities, the same feelings, the same instincts, and so forth then this is a an incredibly powerful defense against thinking you are inherently better than someone else on account of race. Thus the inherent danger in buying into racial essentialism, even if with the best of motivations.

That is overstating the case by a considerable amount.

Well they sure as heck aren't usually libertarians. The followers of Adorno and Marcuse aren't exactly known for thinking society needs to be left to its own devices. The core of Condorcet's progressive ideology is that everyone needs to be improved on. It's not a long jump to "whether they like it or not". I suggest you read "A Critique of Pure Tolerance."

UPDATE: I got snippy with a parting shot in a previous version of this post.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Race, in America, is both a real thing and more social in construct than genetic makeup. It would be foolish to pretend such a thing does not exist.
I used the term "hunky" to replace "white" in "white man's burden" because I am white and I find the term funny.
I am not arguing anything I have argued for racial superiority, white pride or anything related to those cancerous concepts. This is nothing more than nothing less than an attempt to respect minorities and their complains about cultural appropriation.

 

[Umbran]

That isn't what I said.

I find it to be an accurate paraphrase of what I saw on the page. You're making an argument, and you are not interested in or willing to discuss the logical validity of that argument?

Like I said before, if you feel I've been making invalid arguments, feel free to discount them.

That's pretty much what I'm doing - publicly noting the logical (and some of the communications) issues with your position.

I've raised a lot of the points beyond just the one about bludgeoning though.

The *number* of points you raise is not really relevant. A ton of weak arguments sums up to a weak argument.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I find it to be an accurate paraphrase of what I saw on the page. You're making an argument, and you are not interested in or willing to discuss the logical validity of that argument?

Like I said, I have no interest in debating fallacies because I think in gaming discussions they are frequently overused and mishandled. But you are invoking an informal logical fallacy and using it to accuse me of making an invalid argument. That isn't what informal fallacies address. Formal fallacies address logical validity, informal fallacies address persuasiveness and failing to prove your point. Pointing to fallacious logic is fine. But merely naming a fallacy using it like a hammer isn't terribly productive. I've pointed to a number of logical fallacies in this discussion myself, but I've never felt the need to invoke them by name like that. It is a lot more productive in my view to take each argument and explain why you think there is a logic flaw there.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The *number* of points you raise is not really relevant. A ton of weak arguments sums up to a weak argument.

Well, we just disagree on this point. To me it seems like you are focusing on one or two points and ignoring stronger ones. I don't know that there is much either of us can say to persuade the other though. In my view, I've made plenty of sound arguments and a few weak ones. Certainly i haven't put them into logical form or refined them as good as they could be, as this is an online discussion where people react in real time. But I find over the course of these discussions points do get refined and you can start to see some tangible, logical positions emerging. But this is a pretty meta-discussion a this point.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Bruce Cordell wrote the Thunder Plains and Elizabeth Bear in her column Writing the Other (where she asserts that white people writing for minorities is “simple”) and even in her story Shoggoths in Bloom, where she writes a main character who is a black man; in these cases, white people are writing stories which purport to “speak” for members of minority cultures. I advocated caution and that restraint equals good manners. They are far deeper into “the honkey’s burden” territory than I am.
t.

I am unfamiliar with Bear's writing, so I can't really address her in particular. I guess where I have concern here isn't saying a bit of caution when dealing with other cultures is called for (that seems pretty reasonable to me). What troubles me, and maybe I am misreading your position, is you seem to be saying something that is close to "white people shouldn't borrow from these cultures or try to write minority characters". Again, I may be totally misreading you. To me though this seems like it closes us off to each other. I doubt that me trying to write from the point of view of a minority character is going to be as accurate or authentic as a person in that minority group doing so. But I feel like it is an important step toward empathizing with people. Granted if I am a racist who uses that characterization to present them negatively or if I am just grossly insensitive, that warrants criticism. But otherwise I would see it as a good thing (in my view it is good for writers to try to see things from the points of view of different people). My other worry here is it feels like we are creating this gulf where we can't ever truly know each other. Sort of like the old ballad by Kipling "Oh, the East is East, and the West is West, and never the Twain shall meet...". As I pointed out earlier I am in in an inter-racial/intercultural marriage and am the product of intercultural household. I think this kind of thinking creates an illusion of distance that really separates people and divides them further.

Another concern I have is, this seems to really kind of be about sophistication. And the people who don't have a sophisticated understanding of other cultures, not necessarily a negative or prejudicial one, are the folks who get hammered by the accusation of Cultural Appropriation. That means your well educated, privileged white person is going to have a pretty easy time navigating CA concerns, but someone who maybe didn't have the benefits of money and a four year degree or masters program, is going to be less likely to have encountered some of these concepts in depth. Granted you can develop that understanding without college or a masters program, but I do think there is a disparity there.

 

[Celebrim]

"It didn’t come from the government down...There was no dictum, no declaration, no censorship, to start with, no!...You must understand that our civilization is so vast that we can’t have our minorities upset and stirred. Ask yourself, what do we want in this country above all? People want to be happy, isn’t that right?...Colored people don’t like Little Black Sambo. Burn it. White people don’t feel good about Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Burn it. Someone’s written a book on tobacco and cancer of the lungs? The cigarette people are weeping? Burn the book. Serenity, Montag. Peace, Montag. Take your fight outside. Better yet, to the incinerator.” - Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451

That was written in 1953 when people were laying the intellectual groundwork for your good intentioned outrage.

Today, not ironically and quite appropriately, what he wrote also requires a "trigger warning".

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

Again, I disagree with you Celebrim, but you are giving the most interesting argument I've heard in ages.