D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

[FormerlyHemlock]

Do I optimize? Sure. I will make choices that are good one. But sometimes, I will specifically *not* optimize (yeah, I know that weapon does more damage, but I think this weapon fits in better with what my character would be). Other times, I just don't care (Eh, I'll just hit the thing.) But the main thing is (when I'm playing) I do it in the context of the group. It's all of us having fun. If I were in a group with a magic user who kept using his slot for chromatic orb, I'd probably make a joke about it, and move on. Because in the long run, if that's what he likes? More power to Orb Boy the Magnificent.

Then it is possible we are in agreement. It is not the act of optimizing itself (a very human activity, arguably universal) which causes issues; it is the impedance mismatch between different members of the group. Social problem, not a playstyle problem.

Here's the test to see if we're in agreement: we're both willing to live and let live with Orb Boy the Magnificent. If he comes to you and asks you to stop optimizing, will you oblige him in the general sense? (I.e. not just one specific thing like a using specific tactic or spell, but cease being more effective than he is, across the board. E.g. don't Disengage when moving away from enemies, nova early and often with your best spells on weak targets, get in fist fights with liches.)

If you say, "No, that's going too far," then we are in agreement.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Wow, a lot of back and forth with little progress.

Towards the "nine-year old" comment, I'm a substitute teacher so I get where it came from originally, young kids go a things with a lot of enthusiasm, little skill, and no care in the world if someone does it better than them, because they are doing what they want to do. It is a rare little kid who would draw a picture, then complain or get upset that their picture is not as good as their neighbors.

However, for the conversation moving forward, I think this example needs to be dropped.

What we seem to have here is a center-ish position defending their position while trying to acknowledge those who take it too far, while being told by the people on the other side they are, at a minimum, more likely to be selfish jerks than the average player. At the same time they are trying to get acknowledge from those people that people in their fringe group would accuse them of the same things.

Both sides have a point in that running a character that aggravates the party and being a jerk at the table is bad. But, as a DM, I think I'm more likely to see the group rally behind an more optimized character that aggravates me than get angry at the optimized player, because unless that player is playing only to show up the other players they tend to enjoy making me tear my hair out in frustration.

Also, the goalposts for "optimized" move too much for us to nail them down and say that here is the line you must cross to ruin my fun. Is it dipping? Spell Choice? Weapon Choice? Using feats? Not grabbing feats until you've got a 20 in you man stats? Choosing to play a synergized class/race combo? I've heard all of these called "optimizing" at one point or another.

In conclusion, if the only reason you post going on is to either prove optimizing is good or bad or evil or divine or whatever, just stop, because no matter how you try and explain it the nuances of human relationships do not translate well into words and we're just arguing in circles at this point

 

[The Yellow Pill]

The thing is that I respect the right of extremists to be extremists. There's more than just preference involved here; there's an inherent point-of-view of what constitutes a fun play style. If you really only get fun out of a Gamist atmosphere, I don't fault you for only wanting to game in that environment. Understand that you're a minority, that it will severely limit your options on finding play opportunities, and that the Storyteller style isn't inferior, just different (ie. Don't argue that Storytellers have brain damage). Do all that, and there's nothing weird, elitist or non-social about being picky with your RPG company.

There's no law that says we all have to work together and meet in the middle. Nor should there be.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Celondon]

Nearly every player "optimizes" to some degree. Rolled a high Strength and a low Intelligence? If you choose to play a Fighter instead of a Wizard, you are optimizing. There is nothing inherently wrong with optimizing your character or gameplay.

You also need to optimize your compatibility with your group, though, and sometimes that means stepping back from "Pun-Pun" levels of cheese and playing something that an average player would consider normal at a glance. If you find yourself arguing with the GM/other players about whether or not some combination you've come up with is legal, odds are your have become unbalanced in terms of compatibility.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Eh, it depends? It's all about group dynamics. For example, if someone from the group told me that my playstyle (involving optimization, or whatever) was having an impact on the group, then I would seriously consider toning that down. It would be time for a little introspection.

You can't say, "It depends" and then answer a different question than the one I asked. I gave some specific examples of what you'd need to do to comply: "E.g. don't Disengage when moving away from enemies, nova early and often with your best spells on weak targets, get in fist fights with liches." He isn't savvy enough to put it in those terms, he just knows you're outshining him and he doesn't like it, but as an optimizer you know that that's what it would take to match his performance. (And you have to do it seriously, not as a Loony.) Do you agree to do it?

The question isn't about "my playstyle" in the abstract, it's a concrete question about whether you'd be willing to go that far. Do you agree to his request? If you would, then we draw our lines in different places.

 

[Fralex]

Well, it seems like basically everyone who has posted agrees that optimization is not inherently bad, which is important to keep in mind. You guys have some common ground!

There's a bunch of different playstyles, as the DMG acknowledges at the start, before even Chapter 1. Different players want different things out of the game. In theory, we could just go with a nice, simple "play the game how you want, just don't be a dick about it," but I think there's something a little more complicated going on here. Looking at the different player types, some definitely sound like they'd have an easier time getting along than others. Like, if what you want is to tell an epic story with your friends, it works best if everyone else has that same desire. If everyone else would rather have epic battles and couldn't care less about the story, then from the storyteller's perspective those darn optimisers and battlers just aren't cooperating. Just as from their perspective the storyteller might seem annoying in their attempts to create the next Odyssey when they just want some fun battles. It's also, of course, possible for them to find a compromise that will let everyone enjoy the game.

The real problem isn't any one particular kind of player, but an unwillingness to respect other players' interests.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Nearly every player "optimizes" to some degree. Rolled a high Strength and a low Intelligence? If you choose to play a Fighter instead of a Wizard, you are optimizing. There is nothing inherently wrong with optimizing your character or gameplay.

You also need to optimize your compatibility with your group, though, and sometimes that means stepping back from "Pun-Pun" levels of cheese and playing something that an average player would consider normal at a glance. If you find yourself arguing with the GM/other players about whether or not some combination you've come up with is legal, odds are your have become unbalanced in terms of compatibility.

Welcome to Enworld!

 

[Celondon]

Welcome to Enworld!

Thanks!

 

[steeldragons]

Yes, welcome [MENTION=68203]Celondon[/MENTION]. Have some start up XP.