D&D 5E Char Ops forums: Something I wish hadn't come over.

[FormerlyHemlock]

Hemlock,

Perhaps you missed the first part of this - "Imagine there is a group of friends that gets together to play pickup basketball and drink beer." The thing is, people do things to have fun. If this was an NBA team, then sure, give it to Kobe. But if you want to play basketball with your friends, then you might want to let them shoot occasionally.

But it's not. And to ascribe natural feelings to "jealousy," misses the boat. It's about working together as a group, talking, having fun, and playing. Different people get different amounts of fun from different aspects. If the *only* thing you derive fun from is sheer optimization at the expense of other people enjoying the game, MMORPGs are probably a better avenue. Or, at the very least, you should seek out groups that enjoy this aspect of the game.

Perhaps I didn't make my point clearly:

It is really disruptive to fun to have other people inside one's "fun cycle." If you're constantly on the lookout for negative emotions from other people, you can't just kick back and play. Have you ever been the adult on a volleyball team when everyone else is a nine-year-old? Now imagine that the nine-year-olds, instead of being relaxed about who's got the spotlight, experience negative emotions every time you hit the ball instead of them. Now you have two opponents, the other team and the emotions of your teammates. You can't just play, you have to be very careful not to play too well.

For me at least, that is a nightmare, and that is what your scenario describes.

What is the most fun is to play with kids who don't experience jealousy (jealous: "feeling resentment against someone because of that person's rivalry, success, or advantages") so you can all just play and have a good relaxed time. If that can't happen, it's better just to recuse one's self from the team and say, "Here, let me find you another nine-year-old."

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Your point was clear enough. I think that your references to jealousy and nine year olds is illuminating. Other people can have different preferences, and not be jealous, or acting like nine year olds. Saying that is not any more correct than if I were to say that someone who is completely selfish in their play is acting like a nine year old, nor is it helpful.

Maybe I have a higher opinion of nine-year-olds than you do. I find that they're mostly pretty chill, and not inclined to jealousy or negative emotions.

But they're still just not as good at games, usually, as adults are. I've played with guys who would do things like blow 9th level spell slots on Chromatic Orb (*wince*). To me, he's playing at the level of a nine-year-old. If he approached me out of game and said, "Hey, could you maybe stop outshining my PC all the time? I know I'm higher level than you are but I've noticed that you always steal my kills, and it's hurting my enjoyment. Could you tone it down a bit?" my emotional response would be, "Toning it down to the level you're playing at is not something I'm interested in. I can barely tolerate being around your PC when he does things like that, despite his Int of 20. Why don't we part ways?" In fact I left that group and that guy's PC is one of the reasons why, though mostly it was DM issues.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

And having everyone play the way you like to play is fine, if that's the expectation that the group has. You may very well feel that you know how to optimize their PCs better than them- you might even be right. And you may have been correct regarding your unspecified DM issues. Who knows? But the point of social activities is to have fun. As you should probably recognize, if your fun is best accomplished by knowing all the rules innately, and knowing how to optimize all avancements, all combat rounds, and everything else, and other people just like to get together, say hi, drink some beers, kill some orcs, and solve some puzzles- maybe you should find a different group.

I did enjoy your hypothetical conversation.

Sure. I think the key point is that fun is best when you don't have other people in your group trying to control you. If you feel pressured to optimize more in order to keep up, or if you feel pressured to play down to a level you're not comfortable with, the problem isn't the level you're playing at--it's the pressure and whatever is motivating it. And if that pressure can't be resolved, you will not playing for long.

Nobody wants to be pressured. Hopefully we agree on that much at least.

P.S. Just to be clear, optimization isn't really "how I have fun." It is something that I instinctively do while I'm having fun with other things. I don't have to stop and think to realize that blowing a 9th level slot on Chromatic Orb or Mass Healing Word is a bad idea: it is blindingly obvious even if I'm playing a shy diplomat Enchanter. If you're talking strictly about someone whose idea of fun is maximizing DPR, then we're not talking about the same subject. But I would point out that there is probably someone who thinks you're an optimizer, relative to them, and if they asked you to "stop optimizing" when you're just playing normally, I expect you'd be taken aback. Hence my position that the root problem is pressuring other people, and the pressure can come from either direction (step up/tone down), and either way it is a social problem and not a playstyle problem.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[The Yellow Pill]

Years ago I joined a dodgeball league at the Jewish Community Center. I sucked, but it was a good time and I even occasionally hit someone. It was a blast, and even though I couldn't understand going to a bar after a ton of cardiac exertion, I drank water and enjoyed the socializing.

But where initially the balls were half basketball sized and half handball sized, eventually they became entirely handball sized. A handful of the players could fling them at a bazillion miles an hour. I was getting clobbered and I couldn't throw one to save my life. It just wasn't fun anymore, so I stopped playing.

Now, I don't fault the guys who wanted to get more competitive. They even started doing tournaments. It was much MORE fun for them. But it wasn't why I wanted to play. I feel no jealousy or resentment, but personally I would have had much more fun if it had stayed geared toward casual players, or as some have called them, "nine year olds."

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I largely agree with your thoughtful post, but I will take issue with this last line. It has been my personal experience that "jerk play" or "that guy" can come from a multitude of sources. It can be the optimizer. It can be the "Acting, Brilliant" person. It can be the guy who keeps insisting on playing evil PCs that are trying to kill the rest of the party. It can be the incorrigible "Rules Lawyer" who requires 30 minutes of rulings for every five minutes of play. It could be the guy who always shows up unprepared and has no idea how to play, one year into the campaign. The way "that guy" manifests can be different.

That said, the most common problem I see is with optimizers, both because they insist that their way is correct (they literally cannot understand how someone else could play differently) and because they are often oblivious to their impact on the social dynamics of the group. That does not make all of them bad- many of the best players I know are optimizers. But by the same token, most of the worst players I know are also optimizers.

It's just an issue of awareness.

I will repeat, there are players out there who would consider you to be an optimizer. And you're probably unaware of it. That is my point but I don't seem to be conveying it well. That's why I brought up the nine-year-olds and the guy with the 9th level spell slots. Anyone who is trying, but failing, to build a competitive character might consider you an "optimizer" even if you don't consider yourself to be one, even if you're not trying to compete with anybody.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Now, I don't fault the guys who wanted to get more competitive. They even started doing tournaments. It was much MORE fun for them. But it wasn't why I wanted to play. I feel no jealousy or resentment, but personally I would have had much more fun if it had stayed geared toward casual players, or as some have called them, "nine year olds."

Kudos to you for doing the right thing. Were there other players who were still interested in a casual game? I hope you were able to salvage a group of like-minded players.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*