[GUIDE] The Art of Battleraging

[the_move]

Over all at 20th level action surge and fighting style balance out the loss of +4 strength. Using second wind covers about 65% of the hp loss from +4 Con (you are still 2 points lower on your con save). That leave the full class barbarian with Indomitable Might, unlimited rages (I'm used to only 6 combats per day so this to me is a moot point) and an ASI, compared to one tool proficiency, 4 battle dice d8, and 3 maneuvers. Over all i feel that they are balanced, dipping fighter gives you a little more damage while staying barbarian gives you more surviveability. The main benefit I find from dipping fighter is that you do not have to wait until level 20 to get all this extra damage and health, instead you get it at a much earlier level so it is more applicable over the coarse of your characters life.

You are clearly ignoring some points. +4 strength is +2 to hit and damage. The +2 to hit makes the use of Great Weapon Mastery (-5 to hit, +10 damage) even more appealing, especially with Recklessness. Those 4 d8 superiority die (each only fuels a single damage roll) totally lose out on +12 damage (more strength + GWM) on each successful attack.

With +4 Con (24 total) you can achieve 7 temp HP per round (as long as you are being reckless), instead of 5 and a meager d10+3 (average 9) per rest. Also Second Wind requires a bonus action to trigger, so one less extra attack with spiked armor, which will hurt your damage output. There goes a d4+7, or even d12+17 if you manage to kill/critically hit a creature during your turn (GWM). You have a total of 285 HP and lvl 20 instead of 242 HP (3 lvls of fighter, otherwise it would be 245) and you have it easier to succeed on Relentless Rage a second, a third or even a fourth time, especially since you saved one more ASI/feat (lvl19) to choose Lucky. When it comes to resting it's 20x d12+7 vs 17 x d12+5 + 3x d10+5.

And infinite rage also means infinite Feral Instinct.

Of course this will all be redundant if you quit playing your character after reaching lvl 20. If your character continues on some kind of epic campaign (you can still acquire items instead of lvls), you should take this into consideration.

 

[WanderingMystic]

I do agree that if you are playing an epic level game going 20 levels of barbarian is amazing, no doubt about it. My only statement was that if you are not going to hit level 20 a three level dip in fighter is worth it.

Even at level 20 the barbarian with a battlemaster dip is doing the same amount of damage as a full barbarian assuming 2 short rest and 24 rounds of combat spread over 6-8 combats. If you go less round of combat then the fighter dip wins out, if you go more rounds of combat the full barbarian wins. Don't forget Riposte with if missed (granted if you are reckless then that wont happen that often) you get another attack.

I had totally forgotten about the temp hp being replenishes every round for some reason i keep reading it as when you rage not when you recklessly attack. There is no way dipping in fighter can be as sturdy as a full barbarian and I never thought they could but I did not realize just how far off they were due to the extra temp hp.

 

[the_move]

I do not know, how you have been calgulating 24 rounds of combat and 2 short rests for the lvl 17 barb/3 battlemaster to be on par with the lvl 20 barb. Yes, the battlemaster with riposte may have an additional 12 reaction attacks with an extra d8 damage (superiority die). But having 4 STR less than the full barb will take 10% off of his hit chance in comparison. and this will even hurt more, if GWM (-5 hit/+10 damage) is used on a regular basis...If you had one ASI/feat left to gain this as multiclass, since - as being - said you lose 1 ASI/feat along the way. Either GWM, or lucky, or one of the 3 ASIs in order to increase STR and CON to MAX, which already requires a mountain dwarf to accomplish. Picking GWM and Lucky and leaving CON at 18 will take another 20 off of your total health pool and reduces your THP gain through Reckless Abandon to 4/round)

Full prof and 20 STR gives you a +11 bonus to hit. Full prof and 24 STR gives you a +13 Bonus to hit. Substract the GWM penalty and the Battlemaster multiclass is left with only his prof bonus, whereas the full barb has a +8 to hit left. Even and especially with advantage you will notice a difference, particularly against creatures with an AC beyond 17.

Also the multiclass only has 6 rages, covering 6 battles per long rest and only if these last 10 rounds or less. Having just 1 more battle during the day and/or maybe longer lasting battles will let you fall behind significantly, as you lose all benefits from raging (plus Reckless Abandon).

 

[Lejaun]

I'll state that personally (no offense to anyone) that I find it kind of silly to look at a class as better or worse for multi-classing or not at 20th level. Most characters rarely ever get that far, and if they do it is likely that they are going to be relatively well off with magic items to complement and fill in any weaknesses they have. That said, I still look at the various possibilities and rank them myself for whatever I play.

Looking at a Fighter 3/Barbarian 17 I think it's good to look at what a build would actually be. For sake of comparing, I will use a mountain dwarf for each class and utilize the standard array in PHB for stats. I'm also going to ignore INT, WIS, and CHA as they don't have much of an impact on combat effectiveness of a barbarian battlerager. I'm also going to use ASI instead of feats to keep the comparisons the same.

15,14,13,12,10,8 are our stats.
14 goes to DEX, as that's the highest that we get an AC bonus from using Spiked Armor.
15 goes to STR
13 goes to CON starting off
Add +2 STR and +2 CON for a mountain dwarf. We now have this starting off:

STR: 17 (+3 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 15 (+2 bonus)
Hitpoints: 14 // (12 + 2)
AC: 14 (can't use spiked armor yet)
To Hit: +5
To damage: +3
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At level 4, a pure barbarian gets +2 to his stats due to ASI (or a feat). That changes us to the following:
STR: 18 (+4 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 16 (+3 bonus)
Hitpoints: 45 // (12 + (7*3) + (4*3)
AC: 16 (AC 14 Spiked armor + 2 DEX)
To Hit: +6
To damage: +4

Considering that the Battlerager is our main class, we'll make it Barbarian 3, Fighter 1 at 4th level. That means no ASI or feat this go around.
STR: 17 (+3)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 15 (+2)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 40 // (12 + (7*2) + 6 = (2*4)
To Hit: +5
To damage: +3

Gain Great Weapon Fighting or Defense fighting style, Gain Second Wind (Heal 1d10 + 1)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level 8 barbarian, another time for a feat or ASI
STR: 18 (+4)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 18 (+4)
AC: 16
Hitpoints: 93 // (12 + (7*7) + (8*4)
To Hit: +7
To damage: + 4

Level 8 (Barbarian 5, fighter 3)
STR: 18 (+4 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 16 (+3 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 82 // 12 + (7*4) + (6*3) + (8*3)
To Hit: +7
To Damage: +4

Keep Second Wind (Heal 1d10 + 3 hp)
Gain Battlemaster w/3 manuevers, Action Surge
No access Feral Instinct and Reckless Abandon because you are not high enough level as a barbarian battlerager yet.
--------------------------------------
Level 12 (Barbarian 12)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 18 (+4)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 137 // 12 + (7*11) + (12*4)
To Hit: +9
To Damage: +5

(Barbarian 9, Fighter 3)
STR: 18 (+4 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 18 (+4 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 134 // 12 + (7*8) + (6*3) + (12*4)
To Hit: +8
To Damage: +4
No access to Relentless Rage or Battlerager charge yet.
-----------------------------------------
Level 16 (Barbarian 16)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 20 (+5)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 197 // 12 + (7*15) + (16*5)
To Hit: +10
To Damage: +5

(Barbarian 13, Fighter 3)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 18 (+4 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 178 // 12 + (7*12) + (6*3) + (16*4)
To Hit: +10
To Damage: +5
Gains access to Relentless Rage
No access to Persistent Rage or Spiked Retribution yet.
--------------------
End result at level 20:

Level 20 (Barbarian 20)
STR: 24 (+7 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 24 (+7)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 285 // 12 + (7*19) + (20*7)
To Hit: +13
To Damage: +7
Primal champion's +4 to STR and CON means no need to use ASI. Barbarian can take a feat here with no real penalty to stats.

(Barbarian 17, Fighter 3)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2 bonus)
CON: 20 (+5 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 209 // 12 + (7*17) + (6*3) + (12*5)
To Hit: +11
To Damage: +5
No access to Indomitable Might or Primal Champion
Has access to Fighting style (Great Weapon Fighting or Defense top choices)
Has access to Second Wind (heal 1d10 + 3 HP)
Has access to Action surge
Has access to Battle Master fighter arch-type with 4 d8superiority dice and know 3 maneuvers

 

[Lejaun]

Hopefully I didn't butcher the stats.

Looking at level 20, a pure barbarian will have about 76 more hit points, +2 to hit and +2 to damage, access to Primal Champion and Indomitable Might class features, and have either +2 ASI to distribute to other stats or have a feat that the 17/3 would not have.
A level 17 barbarian / level 3 fighter may have +1 AC or Great Weapon Fighting, be able to heal 1d10 + 3 HP, have action surge, and have 4 (d8) superiority dice on which to spend on 3 known maneuvers.

The multi-class also has periods where it is behind on HP or takes longer to get barbarian and battlerager features as it levels up.

Now you have to decide which fits you best. It might make more sense to go 16 barbarian, 4 fighter just to get the ASI/feat from 4 levels of fighter.

 

[WanderingMystic]

[Great sword with GWF = 9 +5(str)+4(rage) +10 (GWM) +.525 (crit damage average)=28.525 damage x2 attacks per round = 51.05 *.6 (.6% chance to hit+.25%from advantage -.25% from GWM)] =34.23 damage + [(11.5)bonus attack *.85%=9.775] = 44.005 damage per round
24 rounds =1056.12
Action surge x3 102.69
Superiority dice x12 =145.89 [54 min, 237.78 if all riposte]
for a total of 1304.7 or 54.36 per round

Great Axe [6.5 +7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.125 (crit average)=28.625 *2 attacks = 57.25 *.7(chance to hit)]=40.075 +bonus(2.5+7(str)+4(rage)=13.5 *.95= 12.825] for a total of 52.9 damage per round.

In the games I have been playing for the last year we have only had a few combats last more than 2-3 rounds none longer than 6, your gaming group might vary so for our games the damage a fighter dip grants you grows to 58 damage per round vs the barbarians 54

edited; gave the great axe damage as if you had gwm so it is really slightly lower

 

[the_move]

Why using great sword on one and great axe on the other? Both can be used by either MC and pure barb.

And now please do the math with only 1 Action surge and 4 superiority dice (no short rest during the whole adventuring day). Because I had sessions where this also happened.

 

[Lejaun]

I'd agree on using the same weapons for comparisons sake.

 

[WanderingMystic]

great sword or mauls do more damage if you have gwm, great axe dose slightly better if you don't so i was giving you the best outcome.

(Barbarian 17, Fighter 3)
Attack action: Maul/Sword 17.34 per attack x2 attacks [34.68]
: Axe 16.8 per attack x2 attacks [33.6]
Bonus action:10.2
Action Surge: 34.68
Superiority Dice: 34.3 per riposte or = 11.725 distracting strike average x2 each =[92.05]

9(maul)+5(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+.9 (crit)= 28.9 *.6 (hit chance)=17.34 x2 attacks = 34.68
7.5(axe)+5(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.5 (crit) = 28 *.6(hit chance)=16.8
bonus action [2.5+ 5(str)+4(rage) +.5 crit = 12*.85

assuming 16 rounds of combat with no rest total damage done = 844.81 or 52.8 per round with maul/sword 828.61 or 51.79 per round with axe

(Barbarian 20)
Attack action: Maul/Sword 20.09 per attack x2 attacks [40.18]
: Axe 20.16 per attack x2 attacks [40.32]
Bonus action:13.3
total per round 53.62 with an axe 53.48 per round with a sword or maul


7(maul)+7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+.7 (crit)= 28.7 *.7 (hit chance)=20.09 x2 attacks = 40.18
6.5(axe)+7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.3 (crit) = 28.8 *.7(hit chance)=20.16

bonus action [2.5+ 7(str)+4(rage) +.5 crit = 14*.95

So the break down is that if you have 15+ round of combat between rest a pure barbarian dose more damage. If you do 14 or less rounds of combat then a fighter splash works better. If you do 14 or less rounds of combat then a fighter splash works better.

For more damage you could add Savage Attacker(better mechanically than lucky) witch would add about 1.625 damage per round to the ax welding full barbarian meaning that you would need to have 13+ rounds of combat between rest for the barbarian to do more damage per round.

 

[Colder]

So with all this talk about multiclassing battle master, has anyone considered champion instead? I think improved critical, when combined with reckless attack, reckless abandon, and brutal critical, might warrant looking into. It's less on-demand damage and less utility, but I think a crit-fishing build fits with the Battlerager fluff very well.