D&D 5E High level play

[AaronOfBarbaria]

But at least this way they are both equally inaccurate, so it balances out right?!

Not really. I mean, you might bend the numbers so that they match where you want them to match, but figuring out that you have a party of PCs that average a CR of 24 (an example number chosen for no particular reason) doesn't actually mean anything useful, or that they are going to consider a CR 24 monster a significant enough threat to maybe fight it alone.

Mostly because CR-figuring includes assumptions that aren't true of PCs - especially in the offense category, since expecting a PC to unload their biggest "guns" in the first 3 rounds of combat isn't an expectation likely to be met on a regular basis, unlike with monsters who have no reason not to do that very thing. Plus if the party does meet that expectation, there is a solid chance the next encounter won't have as potent of fire-power to start it off so you either have an even less accurate CR (the one assuming their most potent abilities), or you have had to refigure the PCs CR for each benchmark at which they just don't have enough resources remaining to be their earlier figured CR.

And of course your suggestion isn't really a method at all. With stats up to 30 from boons (or just alternate progression I forget which) there can and will be a large change in difficult as the PCs gain more boons. So some method would be good, but it will never beat a good DM who knows his party and the adversaries she is throwing at them.

You are incorrectly assuming a difference between my method and being a good DM who knows the party and the adversaries thrown at them.

Maybe I shouldn't, but I assume that anyone getting characters up to 20th level is going to know what they are doing by that point.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Maybe I shouldn't, but I assume that anyone getting characters up to 20th level is going to know what they are doing by that point.

I think this is where you fail...much like I do. I would also 'assume' that a player knows how to keep his character alive no matter the circumstances at this stage in the game. It has been my experience, however, that this is almost never the case.

The most loathed thing about all Adventure Paths since their 3.x debute is the "assumption" that PC's start at level 1, and end at level 20 (or close to it). This assumption also implies a 9-month turn around, roughly. To me, this is like joining a hockey team that plays a game every weekend...and at the end of 9 or so months, you are a professional ready to be drafted to the NHL. I'm sorry, but...no. H#ll no! "I started playing hockey with hand-me-down equipment...but now, after playing every weekend for 9 months straight, I have the best and most expensive equipment money can buy. So, yeah, I'm a professional hockey player now. Who wants to draft me?".

Players I've been encountering/taking with/DM'ing/Playing with over the last decade and a half (or more...this thing was fairly prevalent in 2e too) seem to have this mentality more times than not, each to varying degrees. These so-called "experienced players" know the rules, sure, but take away the stuff they rely on (say, all their magic items and equipment), and suddenly they're like newborn kittens tossed to the wolves! After the quick little snack (re: all the PC's die), these so-called experienced players whine like babies, decrying how "unfair" the DM was and how they "had no chance", or that the DM is of the "killer DM" type. A good adventure to test this out with any group is either Tomb of Horrors, or In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords. The latter is perhaps a bit more telling of where a group of players actual 'experience and skill' at roleplaying D&D is at.

Paizo asked (asks?) what folks want for "the next AP". I, and not a few others, have asked for an AP to cover less of a level spread...say 4 to 10, or 1 to 9, or 14 to 20. Alas, we quickly get drowned out by all the "if it doesn't end at 20th, then what's the point in playing an AP?" type of retort. I think only once did we get a word from Paizo...and it was basically "Not likely. Most of the people we poll want 1 to 20th so they can do epic, world-saving things" as if it's impossible for a group of 8th level PC's to save the world in epic fashion.

*sigh* Sorry...my grognard's are showing.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[TheLoneRanger1979]

as if it's impossible for a group of 8th level PC's to save the world in epic fashion.

Very good point there!

 

[TerraDave]

Ya. We are talking about games beyond level 20.

Are there really that many games in 5E that go beyond, say, level 10?

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Ya. We are talking about games beyond level 20.

Are there really that many games in 5E that go beyond, say, level 10?

It's not about how many there are that go to that point now, because there aren't many due to it not having been sufficient time for some folks to get there (such as my group) and it hasn't been enough time for folks that are still carrying prior-edition baggage in the form of expecting the game to crap out around level 10-12 so they just aren't trying to go further.

It's about how many want to go that far in the future.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I don't think they are going to make it in the next two weeks. So...what they can attempt to do next time around...make those ideas more palatable to the masses (re: everyone other than the 76 people currently backing it). What do I mean by that? I'll tell you...

Looking at the abilities and whatnot from just the Fighter ("Dreadnaught") and the Wizard (whatever it was called)...many of those abilities sound cool. But they don't "require" high-level play. Reduce the numbers a bit and add in some slight limitations (a DC check, or X per long rest, etc). Now take those abilities and find some other way to introduce them into the game. Make them some sort of "Character Enhancement Package" that a player can choose in some way.

Maybe a player can spend XP, or has to undertake some quest/special training (requiring time, money and an accepting teacher in role-playing terms), or maybe as some sort of Feat thing for those who use it. Or, hell, just turn all those 21 - 30 level stuff into a 10-level PrC (...I still don't like how they are handled, but this seems like a good opportunity to sway me and others...). I can see a "Dreadnaught Prestige Order". Maybe set up the requirements for level based on previous class (like "Fighter [Champion] - 5th Level // Fighter [BattleMaster] - 7th Level // Other Classes - 10th Level"). Keep the other "campaign/roleplaying requierments" idea too though...don't just reduce it to mechanics. Joining a Prestige Order should require a DM's input and acceptance.

In short...take those ideas and make them more universal and "optional choices" so that they can be used in ALL levels of play...not just "20th+". Many folks don't enjoy high-level play much, some like mid-level, and some do like high-level. Better to create something that everyone can use over just a small subset of everyone. IMHO, of course.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Upper_Krust]

Right back at ya - glade to see your still lurking around.

I pop up now and again!

Unfortunately, though the preview material gives examples of different tiers of epic monsters (each one is 4-6 pages), it didn't provide details about how the Epic Tiers work as far as I could tell. I skimmed it pretty quickly though. The strange thing, again at a quick glance, was that the creatures of different ties didn't appear to be that different statistically. So maybe the stat are relative to the epic tier? That is an idea I have been working with for some time myself, but I'm not sure that is what is going on here or not.

I had a look over them...wasn't that impressed - although it could be the devil is in the details (and my 5E knowledge is admittedly lacking). But even the choice of 'monsters' didn't make any sense.

Firstly, the Wendigo; conceptually is NOT an epic monster. Now you could make the point I outlined an epic wendigo in my 4E Vampire Bestiary, BUT in my defense I had the wendigo start in the Heroic Tier (paralleling its mythical roots) but have the potential to rise in power based on the number of victims it devoured.

Secondly, I have read over it now but I don't see where it says the wendigo enters phase 2 or why it enters it? Plus the stat-block itself is a tad confusing in its layout.

Thirdly, the wendigo has at least 22 different powers! I think I had 15 for a Super-solo version of Orcus and that was pushing the absolute extreme limits of what a DM would remember (even then it was probably too many to remember).

https://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/article-orcus-revisited/

NB. (This is relevant) I remember reading the Primal Order: Pawns book and being amazed by the cool epic monster design. In that book each monster was defined by its SIGNATURE power (or in a few cases maybe 2-3 unique powers). Having 22 powers you are not really 'defining' a monster as much as you are obfuscating its true nature under a deluge of abilities.

Multiple powers are repeated for both phases - that stuff simply needs condensed; ESPECIALLY when you are reprinting virtually the exact same stat block.

A few spelling mistakes (another reason to condense the stat blocks - less to spellcheck and proof read).

The Immortal Pharoah and Epic Knave entries are not even Epic Monsters but rather epic NPCs...and while the headline notes 'Epic Threats' not Epic Monsters again its just disappointing. Maybe the 'threats' in the full book will be more interesting, but the examples are weak.

Plus the whole thing seems frightened to say what level these threats are. Its not Level 24 its (buried near the bottom of the stat-block) 'Epic 4'.

Well it was a good idea and worked really well with the 4e mechanics, super-solos just made sense. I made a few myself, and to be fair the 4e Lolth was basically a phased elite or super-elite. So the concept to get a little usage.

I still blame myself for what happened to 4E Epic play, since I had the ideas and plans to easily fix it (Immortal Tier, Super-Solos; Unit rules for mass battles, Magic Templates; Revised Core Classes to fit on one page...to name a few things) and just never got around to publishing them (partly because the market was so fractured by then it didn't make financial sense and partly my own procrastination).

 

[S'mon]

Are there really that many games in 5E that go beyond, say, level 10?

Highest level PC in my Wilderlands 5e game is 13th level after 63 sessions, and with the current rate of advancement it certainly looks like the game will go to 20th and beyond. I currently don't plan to use XP after 20th, just grant Epic Boons upon completion of epic feats, probably at least 4-5 sessions per task/quest.

My 5e Golarion game is currently 4th-5th level after 11 sessions, I hope to run it for years and again see PCs reach 20th level as they battle the rising powers of Ancient Thassilon.

 

[dave2008]

I pop up now and again!

I had a look over them...wasn't that impressed - although it could be the devil is in the details (and my 5E knowledge is admittedly lacking). But even the choice of 'monsters' didn't make any sense.

I agree, I wasn't either, for most the same reasons you were not.

I pop up now and again! NB. (This is relevant) I remember reading the Primal Order: Pawns book and being amazed by the cool epic monster design. In that book each monster was defined by its SIGNATURE power (or in a few cases maybe 2-3 unique powers). Having 22 powers you are not really 'defining' a monster as much as you are obfuscating its true nature under a deluge of abilities.

I didn't realize there was a Primal Order: Pawns. I will have to track that down. I like the idea of signature power as well. The 5e dragons are kinda vanilla (all the same design, just a change in breath weapon) so I thought I would submit some revised dragons to the DMs Guild and add back some 4e type powers, then I came across an old Dragon article about "True Dragons" which also had the concept of older dragons developing a unique signature power. I thought that would be something to build the redesigns around.

I still blame myself for what happened to 4E Epic play, since I had the ideas and plans to easily fix it (Immortal Tier, Super-Solos; Unit rules for mass battles, Magic Templates; Revised Core Classes to fit on one page...to name a few things) and just never got around to publishing them (partly because the market was so fractured by then it didn't make financial sense and partly my own procrastination).

Don't blame yourself, unfortunately 4e was not to be. Though I was really looking forward to your super-size rules. The 4e system is really set up well for epic tier play IMHO. The 2x power per 5 levels concept combined with the minion, standard, elite, solo, super-solo system. It really gives you flexibility to make and modify monsters to work across a range of play. I think a lot people missed that concept. A balor could be elite at 29th level, but a standard at 34th level, a minion at 39th level. I always thought you could add swarms to that progression as well. Thus an Immortal tier god could challenge a host of angles or similar.

I've still thought about making an effort to make a truly epic/immortal immortal tier 4e, but I agree that to do it right you need to rebuild the existing epic (balors should be epic after all) first and that would be a lot of additional work. Ultimately my ideal system is a mix of 4e, 5e, and my own ideas. I've decided to proceed down that route when I get time. Until then I am making "epic" conversions for 5e and using it as practice for avatars of the truly epic levels I am contemplating for my own system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I agree, I wasn't either, for most the same reasons you were not.

I would always be supportive of Epic Gaming but what I have read of the previews didn't impress me in any way.

I didn't realize there was a Primal Order: Pawns. I will have to track that down.

After Pantheons of the Megaverse I would say its the next most important epic monster book to pick up...not counting my own of course.

I like the idea of signature power as well. The 5e dragons are kinda vanilla (all the same design, just a change in breath weapon) so I thought I would submit some revised dragons to the DMs Guild and add back some 4e type powers, then I came across an old Dragon article about "True Dragons" which also had the concept of older dragons developing a unique signature power. I thought that would be something to build the redesigns around.

Well dragons generally always boil down to the breath weapon. I tried adding a few things to my epic dragons like unique scale properties and stuff like that but its tough to make dragons 'play' radically different and still feel like dragons.

Don't blame yourself, unfortunately 4e was not to be.

Can't help myself...I had the ability to save it and make it the best epic gaming ever and I just let it slip through my fingers. Bloody stupid.

Though I was really looking forward to your super-size rules. The 4e system is really set up well for epic tier play IMHO. The 2x power per 5 levels concept combined with the minion, standard, elite, solo, super-solo system. It really gives you flexibility to make and modify monsters to work across a range of play. I think a lot people missed that concept.

There was a lot of design choices 4E got right and for whatever reason they just weren't exploited by WotC.

A balor could be elite at 29th level, but a standard at 34th level, a minion at 39th level.

True although a Balor should not even have been Epic Tier to begin with. From the ground up WotC didn't know what they were doing with Epic Gaming in 4E - that's why they simply 'folded' non-epic monsters (dragons, demons and even the Tarrasque) into the Epic Tier to 'pad' it out.

I always thought you could add swarms to that progression as well. Thus an Immortal tier god could challenge a host of angles or similar.

I had all that solved with my Unit Rules. So you could fight a group of 1000 orcs or 1 million demons (or whatever) within 1 stat-block.

I've still thought about making an effort to make a truly epic/immortal immortal tier 4e, but I agree that to do it right you need to rebuild the existing epic (balors should be epic after all) first and that would be a lot of additional work. Ultimately my ideal system is a mix of 4e, 5e, and my own ideas. I've decided to proceed down that route when I get time. Until then I am making "epic" conversions for 5e and using it as practice for avatars of the truly epic levels I am contemplating for my own system.

Best of luck amigo...it sounds like a lot of work.