D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day

[Celtavian]

Cleric and bard are complete.

 

[Delazar]

Okay. What is the sign that the encounter building guidelines have worked though? Dead PCs? Resources drained to a certain amount?

For myself? That's an interesting question. I would say near dead PCs. For me the goal is to make the PCs feel as though they might die, but not actually kill them unless it's some end game scenario where a glorious death would fit. This is fantasy action, not Seven Samurai gritty, realistic heroism. I always consider my goal the "brink of death" for at least a few PCs in an adventuring day involving seriously heroic battles. I feel I've failed as a DM if I kill PCs in a meaningless manner unless unlucky dice rolls kill them (which we've likely all had happen). I'm very much a DM that wants my PCs to feel like heroes facing great challenges that they ultimately overcome.

What would too easy be? Steamrolling most of the encounters.

For this thought exercise, we need to stick mostly with Monster Manual monsters since it is those monsters we are complaining about as being too weak. An encounter with a designed monster using the DMG parameters would be ok, but 5 to 7 of the encounters must be Monster Manual monsters or very slight derivatives. When myself or the CapnZapp are talking, we're generally referring to encounters are written in modules or monsters pulled from the Monster Manual.

Maps must be clear, so players can take advantage of terrain. My PCs are very focused on ensuring those that should be out of danger are out of danger. Controlling the flow of enemies is job 1.

Really curious to see how this goes, but re-reading the "aim" of this test, I cannot see how this can ever work to all parties' satisfaction., or even how this can be in any way conclusive.

I mean, when I read about Celtavian's party, I have this image of a swat team carefully planning their actions, scouting ahead, gathering info. Mind you, all things that make a lot of sense, and kudos to them.

But when I think about the party I DM, they're more like "ok DM, what's today's quest? Evil wizard in a tower? Sure, let's go knocking at his door! Chaaaaarge!"

When we play Birthright, they're more careful and plan a bit more, probably because they feel that the "mood" of the game is more "Game-of-thrones-y", but it's very rare to see them use divination spells on the enemy, set an ambush, or even build their characters to sinergize with other party members. Once they have at least one tank and one healer, they feel good to go!

So now I wonder, the encounter building guidelines, who are they written for? I understand the designers are professionals, but I don't think they found the magic formula to encompass all styles of play. And I believe that when in doubt, they probably erred on the side of "let's make it a bit easier, to make sure PCs don't get slaughtered".

Well, still curious to see how this pans out, best of luck to all involved!

 

[Azurewraith]

Really curious to see how this goes, but re-reading the "aim" of this test, I cannot see how this can ever work to all parties' satisfaction., or even how this can be in any way conclusive.

I mean, when I read about Celtavian's party, I have this image of a swat team carefully planning their actions, scouting ahead, gathering info. Mind you, all things that make a lot of sense, and kudos to them.

But when I think about the party I DM, they're more like "ok DM, what's today's quest? Evil wizard in a tower? Sure, let's go knocking at his door! Chaaaaarge!"

When we play Birthright, they're more careful and plan a bit more, probably because they feel that the "mood" of the game is more "Game-of-thrones-y", but it's very rare to see them use divination spells on the enemy, set an ambush, or even build their characters to sinergize with other party members. Once they have at least one tank and one healer, they feel good to go!

So now I wonder, the encounter building guidelines, who are they written for? I understand the designers are professionals, but I don't think they found the magic formula to encompass all styles of play. And I believe that when in doubt, they probably erred on the side of "let's make it a bit easier, to make sure PCs don't get slaughtered".

Well, still curious to see how this pans out, best of luck to all involved!

I would imagine they were designed with your ranger/paladin half caster types your barbarian/fighter type a rougue/bard skill monkey and a full caster. I would imagine they are loose enough to cover most non specialist comps such as full wizard party.

 

[BoldItalic]

Bedrock and Edward discussed the situation between themselves.

"So, it's save the world and back home in time for dinner," offered Bedrock.
"I think that's number seven, then," replied Edward, checking his diary.
"What do you reckon?"
"We might need Tom. He good in a tight squeeze."
"Right. Just don't turn your back on him."
"That's why we keep him in front of us."
"Scouting."
"Quite."
"Anyone else?"
"I suppose we have to have Princess Snowflake?"
"She's very effective. And she looks good in a slinky dress."
"I know, it's just that, whenever we do Rary's Telepathic Bond, she has these pictures in her head .."
"I know what you mean. Spiky."
"By the way, I haven't told anyone about, you know .."
"Thanks. It's a family thing."
"Not having much of a family, it wouldn't matter to me anyway."
"You're practically family to us, Edward. Lulu likes you."
"I can't get used to calling your sister Lulu."
"Well, if you address her as Liskeard Luxulyan Trelawny, she'll assume you're proposing."
"Last time I saw her, she called me a slob with the manners of a pig."
"Shows she cares. You'd have my blessing."
"Talking of weddings, reckon we'll get a cleric this trip?"
"Bound to. End-Of-The-World-Is-Nigh, the gods are bound to take an interest and send their own man along."

At that moment, the door opened and in walked ..


Just a bit of bonding between the PCs. Bedrock has a motive for protecting Edward, but the bonding with the other PCs is still undefined.

 

[Azurewraith]

"We might need Tom. He good in a tight squeeze."
"Right. Just don't turn your back on him."
"That's why we keep him in front of us."
"Scouting."
"Quite."
.

Be careful he dosnt hear you talking about him like that. Those crazy voices n all. He's a good lad honest.

 

[iserith]

Really curious to see how this goes, but re-reading the "aim" of this test, I cannot see how this can ever work to all parties' satisfaction., or even how this can be in any way conclusive.

I mean, when I read about Celtavian's party, I have this image of a swat team carefully planning their actions, scouting ahead, gathering info. Mind you, all things that make a lot of sense, and kudos to them.

But when I think about the party I DM, they're more like "ok DM, what's today's quest? Evil wizard in a tower? Sure, let's go knocking at his door! Chaaaaarge!"

When we play Birthright, they're more careful and plan a bit more, probably because they feel that the "mood" of the game is more "Game-of-thrones-y", but it's very rare to see them use divination spells on the enemy, set an ambush, or even build their characters to sinergize with other party members. Once they have at least one tank and one healer, they feel good to go!

So now I wonder, the encounter building guidelines, who are they written for? I understand the designers are professionals, but I don't think they found the magic formula to encompass all styles of play. And I believe that when in doubt, they probably erred on the side of "let's make it a bit easier, to make sure PCs don't get slaughtered".

Well, still curious to see how this pans out, best of luck to all involved!

The results of the debate probably won't change the minds of hardliners. But this experiment isn't for them - it's for the undecided.

 

[Azurewraith]

situationBedrock and Edward discussed the between themselves.

"So, it's save the world and back home in time for dinner," offered Bedrock.
"I think that's number seven, then," replied Edward, checking his diary.
"What do you reckon?"
"We might need Tom. He good in a tight squeeze."
"Right. Just don't turn your back on him."
"That's why we keep him in front of us."
"Scouting."
"Quite."
"Anyone else?"
"I suppose we have to have Princess Snowflake?"
"She's very effective. And she looks good in a slinky dress."
"I know, it's just that, whenever we do Rary's Telepathic Bond, she has these pictures in her head .."
"I know what you mean. Spiky."
"By the way, I haven't told anyone about, you know .."
"Thanks. It's a family thing."
"Not having much of a family, it wouldn't matter to me anyway."
"You're practically family to us, Edward. Lulu likes you."
"I can't get used to calling your sister Lulu."
"Well, if you address her as Liskeard Luxulyan Trelawny, she'll assume you're proposing."
"Last time I saw her, she called me a slob with the manners of a pig."
"Shows she cares. You'd have my blessing."
"Talking of weddings, reckon we'll get a cleric this trip?"
"Bound to. End-Of-The-World-Is-Nigh, the gods are bound to take an interest and send their own man along."

At that moment, the door opened and in walked ..
.

"Why hello there chaps just revived a voice inside my head telling me to meet you here. I'm coming in through the window as well there's been a terrible mix up I was visiting stan at the brewery just out side of town, turns out he had one of those bottomless tankards. One thing lead to another and it ended up in my backpack, when I tried to give it back well, urn, he started foaming at the mouth accused me of stealing the damn thing, The nerve. Turns out he's really mad and head of the thieves guild... wants me dead. Me of all people. Oh hello there(looks towards myrkyn) Thomas Bushbriar. I hear some magic artifacts.. I mean the world needs saving.

 

[Celtavian]

Really curious to see how this goes, but re-reading the "aim" of this test, I cannot see how this can ever work to all parties' satisfaction., or even how this can be in any way conclusive.

I mean, when I read about Celtavian's party, I have this image of a swat team carefully planning their actions, scouting ahead, gathering info. Mind you, all things that make a lot of sense, and kudos to them.

But when I think about the party I DM, they're more like "ok DM, what's today's quest? Evil wizard in a tower? Sure, let's go knocking at his door! Chaaaaarge!"

When we play Birthright, they're more careful and plan a bit more, probably because they feel that the "mood" of the game is more "Game-of-thrones-y", but it's very rare to see them use divination spells on the enemy, set an ambush, or even build their characters to sinergize with other party members. Once they have at least one tank and one healer, they feel good to go!

So now I wonder, the encounter building guidelines, who are they written for? I understand the designers are professionals, but I don't think they found the magic formula to encompass all styles of play. And I believe that when in doubt, they probably erred on the side of "let's make it a bit easier, to make sure PCs don't get slaughtered".

Well, still curious to see how this pans out, best of luck to all involved!

The one thing about D&D I always enjoyed is that it can easily be modified to any party composition and play-style. It takes the DM understanding the underlying design conventions and knowing how to modify them to suit what's at the table.

 

[Celtavian]

The results of the debate probably won't change the minds of hardliners. But this experiment isn't for them - it's for the undecided.

For me it would take more than one specially made session. For most of us "hardliners" as you call us, it was never a question of "You can't possibly design a 6-8 encounter day that can challenge a high level party." I've already done that more than a few times. It was you can't take the Monster Manual, use the standard rules for encounter building using the Monster Manual, and continuously challenge a high level, optimized party. The reason I am specific is because that is what I run. A one off series of encounters doesn't do much to prove your point unless I can do it over and over and over again as I am required to do. I certainly can't use the hook Flamestrike is using more than a few times at best to drive the party on. That would frustrate and bore them.

Now I'm reasonable as well. Flamestrike apparently does this roughly 50% of the time. I'd put it more in the 10 to 20% range myself for a continuous campaign. Basically in a major high level campaign, you're only going to be able seriously challenge a high level optimized party in about 1 or 2 out of 10 encounters. Sometimes even the encounters you thought would be tough get short-circuited by rolls or very effective strategy. I would say this percentage increases substantially at lower level. 1st level to 3rd level characters are often challenged by nearly every encounter and easily in the 70 to 80% range. Heck, at that level a DM sometimes has to pull his punches. As you advance in level it becomes progressively more difficult to challenge the party on a continuous basis.

Now mind you, this isn't for one shots like some DMs like yourself do iserith. This is continuous campaigning with a static group that goes from one long-term campaign to the next where the party will work up from lvl 1 to around lvl 12 or higher roughly 50% of the campaigns. The S.W.A.T team analogy is extremely accurate. Careful scouting, highly optimized tactics, terrain control, optimized spell lists with a specific strategy, removal of opponent's best counters, characters built for survival, and the like.

That's why these conversations tend to go as they go. Some of us are playing very differently.

 

[Celtavian]

Thomas Bushbriar
[/B]Halfling/Lightfoot,Rogue/Thief 13
Folk Hero,Neutral Good
Armor Class17
Hit Points83
Speed25 ft.
Personality trait
I'm confident in my own abilities and do what I can to instill confidence in others.
Ideal
Fairness. No one should get preferential treatment before the law, and no one is above the law. (Lawful)
Bond
I stood alone against a terrible monster.
Flaw
Suffers from kleptomania for magic items, Occasionally gets lost in internal monologues
Stats
str
8 (-1)
dex
20 (+5)
con
12 (+1)
int
11 (0)
wis
14 (+2)
cha
14 (+2)
Proficiency Bonus+5
Skills
Animal Handling +12(expertise)
Investigation 10(expertise)
Perception +7,
Sleight of Hand +15(expertise)
Stealth +15(expertise)
Survival +7
Sensespassive Perception 17
Languages
Actions
Rapier.Melee +10 rHit: 1d8 -1 (STR) or 1d8 +5 (DEX - finesse) piercing damage.

Dagger.Melee +10 range 20/60 ft. 1d4+5piercing damage.

Crossbow +10 range 80/320 ft. Hit: 1d8 +5 piercing damage.
Feats
Sharpshooter.You know
Racial Abilitys
Lucky
Brave
Halfling Nimbleness.
Naturally Stealthy

Rogue Abilitys

Sneak Attack.7d6
Thieves' Cant
Cunning Action.
Uncanny Dodge.
Evasion
Reliable Talent.
Fast Hands.
Second-Story Work.
Supreme Sneak
Use Magic Device.

Equipment
Rapier
5daggers
Studded leather Armour
Light Crossbow
Thieves tools
Crowbar
5bags of caltrops
5sticks of chalk
Climbers kit
10flasks of oil
Hooded lantern
mirror
2torches
1000 ball bearings
3sunrods
2smoke sticks

Backstory/description
Short even for a halfling very slight of build long brown hair pulled into a nice neat pony tail

Thomas Bushbriar is the hero of the halfling village of Clear Water that became under the influence of a cult of the Nerul. Thomas saved the village by stealing the powerfull enchanted ring from the high priest of nerul and turning its power upon the worshipers themselves with no ill effects to himself(or so he thinks he now has the undying urge to steal anything that emits even slightest magical energy oh and the voice in his head that urges him to kill, he nearly never listens...)

Hope its easy enough to understand and make out.
For magic items i was wondering about some goggles which granted him the ability to see magic or some way of detecting magic. Would be cool if he stole an alchemists stone from some one aswell but ill let you decied

You didn't take Expertise in Perception? That is an essential scout skill. It doesn't help much if you're getting ambushed or destroyed by dangerous traps. You're a Halfling which means no Darkvision, thus your stealth will be nearly useless since you'll likely have to employ a light source to Stealth which negates the advantages of Stealthing. Even with Darkvision, when Stealthing absent light we'll have a reduction in Passive Perception of 5 due to shadowy light. Without darkvision, our scout will be a sitting duck. No Acrobatic Expertise to resist grapple is less of a problem because you'll be ranged. No expertise in Thieves' Tools for disarming traps could be a problem, then again traps don't come up a ton. Investigation is not bad depending on how Flamestrike runs that skill and if he allows Passive Checks.

For an assassin, you're definitely hamstringing yourself by choosing Halfling with no darkvision and no Expertise in Perception. The lack of Darkvision in 5E for a PC that relies on Stealth is a huge disadvantage. Given you have a decent Charisma, you may almost want to optimize by taking some levels of warlock to obtain Devilsight. This will make you a far more effective Assassin.

Just an FYI that if Flamestrike's encounter design is as ruthless as he has made it sound, you may get hammered quickly lacking the advantage of seeing the enemy first.