D&D 5E what is it about 2nd ed that we miss?

[RotGrub]

I listed several alternatives to scratches, but, no, not a lot more. No deep gashes that'd've severed nerves/vessels/muscles, no broken or lopped of limbs, no traumatic brain injury, etc, until you hit that 0 hp threshold where you drop unconscious and can die. Until then, you're just happily adventuring along at no penalty of any kind. Same place you get that they don't heal overnight. Yes, that's the point.

The 0 HP threshold is dead in 2e unless you are using the optional rule in the DMG. So unless you make every single "real" hit a death blow that theory doesn't work in 2e by default.

I think the healing mechanics of 2e allow for HP to be used for deep wounds and other injuries like serious burns. I really don't understand what you think healing spells are capable of healing, but it seems to me you're limiting the abstraction and their usefulness. From what I can tell they can heal deep wounds and serious burns, they are not just "endurance refreshments". I honestly couldn't play a cleric in D&D if my healing spells were that pathetic. I think that would make divine magic seem very cheap and pointless.

As for suffering lasting wounds, 2e does a great job of that when it's needed and if you need more granularity the players options books are a great source for bleeding wounds and lost limbs. Apart from that, a Blade of Sharpness or a Staff of Withering is another option for limb loss. For bleeding wounds, the sword of wounding uses HPs alone for that purpose. Of course, many spells like Heat Metal have these debilitating mechanics baked in. In this case searing hot metal causes blisters and damage to exposed flesh and a heal spell restores the debilitating effects.

I also think that HP in 2e are far more abstract than what you are suggesting. I certainly don't need Hit Dice, Healing Surges, or extra rules to describe serious injury. IMO, HP are abstract enough for this purpose alone provided healing magic has the power to restore those injuries and natural healing is very slow.

 

[RotGrub]

Wow, enjoyable read so far. Nice to see both sides representing well.

So, the HP definition depends on 2 factors:
-Can average joe PC heal his HP overnight without magic?
-Is a cleric/magicwand assumed to be readily available to the average joe PC?

If we cross join them, we'd get something like:
No Overnight x No Cleric = reality. This one's lame.
Yes Overnight x No Cleric = 4e.
No Overnight x Yes Cleric = 2e.
Both Yes Overnight x Yes Cleric = Seems like an "unstable state" *

And neither system handles concussions, shock, or lingering wounds. I'm reminded of an important argument in Gulliver's Travels, which is a pleasant thought.

* Yes, I agree with Tony that 5e poorly defines hitpoints. It doesn't help that WotC is releasing products that give nod to existing canon (e.g. 2e clerics, CoS vestiges) but at the same time try to accomodate younger gamers who are oblivious to the legacy settings (i.e. kids these days have no connection to the OldSchool style suspension-of-disbelief).

Yeah that's a good outline of the differences. It's just too bad 5e didn't provide the 2e option in some way. I've looked at the problem for a while now and I've concluded that I would need to remove hit dice, powers like second wind, and bost divine healing slots. I'm also not convinced that the resting options in the 5e DMG are adequate.

With that said, 2e does have extended options for lingering wounds, limb loss, etc.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The 0 HP threshold is dead in 2e unless you are using the optional rule in the DMG. So unless you make every single "real" hit a death blow that theory doesn't work in 2e by default.

That just makes 2e that little bit more un-realistic and abstract. No matter how much damage you take from what, all the way down to 1 hp, it /can't/ represent anything too severe, because there's just no penalties associated with it, at all. Then, at 0 - splat, dead. The -10 option at least brings in something between trivial and fatal.

I think the healing mechanics of 2e allow for HP to be used for deep wounds and other injuries like serious burns.

Deep wounds and serious burns are debilitating and can be life-threatening. Hit point damage down to one hp in 2e is neither of those things.

Blade of Sharpness or a Staff of Withering is another option for limb loss. For bleeding wounds, the sword of wounding uses HPs alone for that purpose.

Of course, and those are magical. So, without magic, you can't inflict a bleeding wound or lop off a limb. Bizarre, but that's magic in D&D, it's always gotten more toys.

I also think that HP in 2e are far more abstract than what you are suggesting.

Hit points are very abstract, not just in 2e, but in all editions. Enough so that you can't go mapping them to specific types/severity of wounds and still have it make sense. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Neonchameleon]

I think you are making the assumption that being struck in any way shape or form (even for a hero) is debilitating. Of course, I know you are forced to claim that if you want non-magical insta healing to make sense.

I make the assumption that being beaten to within an inch of your life while remaining conscious (i.e. knocked down to one hit point in 2e) should be debilitating.

Here is my example, Take a character who suffers a critical from a lance. In 2e you can tell the player a splinter went right into his neck. Now, a D&D cleric could come along and heal him to full. In 2e, the actual wound could be described. In 5e, the DM can't describe that wound because he'll be forced to house rule in fear that the knight will recover in a day or two without magic.

You can only describe the wound as such in 2e while the PC is suffering precisely no mechanical penalties from that dangerous splinter in their neck if you want to shatter the suspension of disbelief of the players at the table. Which means that you can do it in 5e every bit as easily as in 2e.

Hit points are not nad have never been primarily meat. And it's been utterly suspension of disbelief breaking to treat anything with no actual mechanical penalties and that can be recovered by bed rest as a remotely serious wound.

You want to know what in the real world takes more than 20 days of rest and light excercise to recover from? What sort of mighty beating has the same sort of recovery as about a 5th level fighter or 10th level wizard being beaten to within an inch of their life? Running a marathon. Where you're advised not to schedule another race for about six weeks.

And in the real world, never mind taking a beating, just running a marathon leaves you massively drained for days. It's far harder on a person in the real world than being reduced to 1hp is in 2e.

Hit points are not and have never been remotely realistic - or behaved in any way, shape, or form like injuries. And that you'll accept a level of unrealism that would make Holywood blush from 2e but 5e is just that step too far for using hit points as injuries is a personal matter for you.

 

[RotGrub]

That just makes 2e that little bit more un-realistic and abstract. No matter how much damage you take from what, all the way down to 1 hp, it /can't/ represent anything to severe, because there's just no penalties associated with it, at all. Then, at 0, splat, dead.

Well I find that most of the time with 2e I'm not describing serious wounds. I'm describing moderate wounds like an arrow in the shoulder.

1 HP simply means that a character is able to fight on heroically. You can role play the situation if need be, but mechanically you're still functional.

Further penalties are prescribed in 2e on an as needed basis, as per my previous example with the Heat Metal spell. Even monster attacks and things like caltrops prescribe further penalties. Obviously, some penalties are dictated by the DM and Called Shots are a mechanism to inflict them. Beyond that the Players Option books provides bleeding rules etc.

So, without magic, you can't inflict a bleeding wound or lop off a limb. Bizarre, but that's magic in D&D.

Magic simply makes it more difficult for such wounds to be bandaged. Regardless, the point is that HPs loss is the bleeding mechanic not just for a wounding weapon but also for the optional bleeding rules found in the 2e players option books.

If you want more granularity then 2e provides those options. Otherwise, hit points are the default abstraction.

 

[RotGrub]

I make the assumption that being beaten to within an inch of your life while remaining conscious (i.e. knocked down to one hit point in 2e) should be debilitating.

You can only describe the wound as such in 2e while the PC is suffering precisely no mechanical penalties from that dangerous splinter in their neck if you want to shatter the suspension of disbelief of the players at the table. Which means that you can do it in 5e every bit as easily as in 2e.

Not really, a cure spell can magically fix that. In other words, the french king who had a splinter lodged in his brain could have been cured by a D&D cleric. I think a Cure Serious Wounds spell would stave off any suspension of disbelief that a serious wound was cured.

Hit points are not nad have never been primarily meat. And it's been utterly suspension of disbelief breaking to treat anything with no actual mechanical penalties and that can be recovered by bed rest as a remotely serious wound.

I don't subscribe to the HPs are all meat argument.

I think HP can be used for whatever makes sense at the time. To restrict them from being a moderate or serious wounds is just limiting your narrative. If you need to add in penalties then as the DM you have that freedom and you have healing spells to keep the narrative sensible.

You want to know what in the real world takes more than 20 days of rest and light excercise to recover from? What sort of mighty beating has the same sort of recovery as about a 5th level fighter or 10th level wizard being beaten to within an inch of their life? Running a marathon. Where you're advised not to schedule another race for about six weeks.

And in the real world, never mind taking a beating, just running a marathon leaves you massively drained for days. It's far harder on a person in the real world than being reduced to 1hp is in 2e.

You're in luck because the 2e Players Option books has rules for stamina. Exhaustion is also covered. Of course, magical spells can fix that too, but as the DM you can enforce that level of realism if needed.

Hit points are not and have never been remotely realistic - or behaved in any way, shape, or form like injuries. And that you'll accept a level of unrealism that would make Holywood blush from 2e but 5e is just that step too far for using hit points as injuries is a personal matter for you.

The only point I'm making here is that if you have healing magic and very long resting times for non-magical healing then you can get away with describing moderate to serious wounds via hit points alone.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well I find that most of the time with 2e I'm not describing serious wounds. I'm describing moderate wounds like an arrow in the shoulder.

If you're describing hp damage in 2e as wounds that would impair the wounded PC (and the loss of mobility in your shoulder from an arrow wound would likely do so), you're stepping outside of the what the mechanics strictly imply/model. Which is fine. Just be willing to do so for 5e as well as for 2e.

Further penalties are prescribed in 2e on an as needed basis, as per my previous example with the Heat Metal spell.

All those examples were spells, though. 8 points of damage from Heat Metal might impose some condition, because Heat Metals says so, 12 points of damage from burning oil or 30 from a fireball wouldn't. It's not an example of hp damage imposing a penalty, it's a spell imposing both hp damage, and a condition/penalty.

If you want more granularity then 2e provides those options. Otherwise, hit points are the default abstraction.

5e provides options, too. And unlimited license to rule however you like.

The only point I'm making here is that if you have healing magic and very long resting times for non-magical healing then you can get away with describing moderate to serious wounds via hit points alone.

Yes and no. Yes you can get away with describing serious wounds whether you have plentiful magical healing and mundane healing so slow it's moot or rare/no magical healing and plentiful heroism, and so in any edition if you really want to. No, you can't describe mere hp damage that doesn't reduce you to 0 as serious wounds in 2e while holding it to the same, unnecessary standard of realism you want to hold 5e too, because there are no penalties or other consequences that such wounds would have.

That's not an argument /to/ hold 2e to unreasonable standards of realism, merely to refrain from doing so for other editions, as well.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

On (1), there is no possible realistic world where you suffer no ill effects until a certain point, and then all ill effects accrue. None.

By that same merit, there is no possible realistic world where it's impossible to suffer ill effects that persist longer than a day, because the only ill effect lasting more than a day is death.

One extreme is that a character can suffer multiple broken bones and impalement without noticeably slowing down, until suddenly collapsing. Recovery is either slow, or it requires magic.

The other extreme is that a character can suffer no scratches or bruises whatsoever, because the first hit that actually lands causes instant death.


Given the two options, the former is significantly less ridiculous, and can be somewhat reconciled with the reality described in heroic fantasy novels. (Most people prefer something closer to the center of the spectrum.)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Well I find that most of the time with 2e I'm not describing serious wounds. I'm describing moderate wounds like an arrow in the shoulder.

I'm not sure about arrows. But in the real world a bullet in the shoulder has a 3-6 month recovery time. And is pretty debilitating for melee combat and even moreso for archery. To call an arrow in the shoulder not a serious wound is ... trivialising.

1 HP simply means that a character is able to fight on heroically. You can role play the situation if need be, but mechanically you're still functional.

You're functional with no penalty.

Not really, a cure spell can magically fix that. In other words, the french king who had a splinter lodged in his brain could have been cured by a D&D cleric. I think a Cure Serious Wounds spell would stave off any suspension of disbelief that a serious wound was cured.

But Cure Serious Wounds can't cure anything that bedrest can't as long as the character isn't bleeding to death. In 2e the French King who had a splinter lodged in his brain would have either survived because 2e characters are incredibly tough (most of them are tough enough to take the worst possible consequence of an orc attacking them from behind with an axe for a minute - even 4e doesn't get close to that) or would have required a Restoration or Regeneration spell.

The only point I'm making here is that if you have healing magic and very long resting times for non-magical healing then you can get away with describing moderate to serious wounds via hit points alone.

And the point I'm making here is that the 2e resting times are amazingly fast. They might be slower than 4e or 5e - but they are still blindingly fast. (And that most cure spells won't cure anything that resting won't). Claiming that 2e has "very long resting times" is a joke.