Harassment in gaming

[Umbran]

Let's consider this from the game shop or convention setting and the author's point that people need to stand up and say something when a group member misbehaves.

A good idea.

So we're at the game shop, you (any reader, not just Umbran), me and Danny are playing a game. A woman walks in and I say something crude involving her and my THAC0 that could be considered offensive, sexist and just wrong on non-euclidean geometry levels.

What can you and should you do (in a non-violent, legal response)?

One of the things to consider in this example, is that YOU are not an authority figure, you are just a customer like me. But you are a Third Party, per Umbran's framing.

Well, in a typical RPG, there is a sort of authority figure - the GM.

As a GM, the response is pretty simple, to the effect of, "Dude, that was *not* cool. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I have a strict, 'No jerks,' policy at my table. Apologize to the lady, or please pack up and go." This all dependent on what the store or con's policy, if any, may be.

As a player, to the effect of "Dude, that was *not* cool!" To the woman: "I'm sorry you were subjected to that. It wasn't acceptable behavior." To the GM, if any, "You going to allow that kind of thing at your table?"

 

[Janx]

Maybe we can leave off from discussion EnWorld's policies here? I know they are somewhat topical, but I would prefer to shift that part of the discussion to Meta, if at all. I don't see a way to "stay within the lines" if that particular discussion is continued.

Thx!
TomB

Indeed. The original article gave a lot of concrete examples of being in a game shop or at a gaming table or at a convention. Somebody grabbing her or making a dirty comment that could reasonably be assumed to be directed at her or about her.

We can't see or stop private email harrassment. Or determine correctly if somebody is staring at us or something else. And we're not the mods on EN World.

But we are people. Who are in places where this stuff may be happening.

There was a line from the X-Files from a character to the effect of "I spent years playing DUngeons and Dragons. I'd like to think I learned something about heroism". Standing up for somebody when harrassment is going down ought to be our shining moment to demonstrate that we learned right from wrong and will make a stand for it.

 

[Hussar]

You're changing the definition of "you" to mean the person accused of harassment. That wasn't how I was using the term, nor was the comment I was responding to, as far as I can tell.



You're not really disagreeing with what I said. In order for the word "harassment" to mean anything more than "whatever someone doesn't like", then it has to have some kind of qualifiers. Once those exist, behaviour can be measured against those qualifiers to see if it actually is harassment or not. You can argue that neither person A or person B are in the best position to do that without bias, but that's really a separate point from the one I was making.



Yes, that's essentially the point I was making. It is not left up to me or the userbase in general to decide what counts as harassment, even if I feel I have been harassed.

No, it really doesn't need qualifiers. That, right there, is a major part of the problem. "Oh, well, you aren't really being hurt, so, too bad" is the wall of silence that many women have to face any time they do have the courage to stand up and say something. And it's a ludicrous standard.

I mentioned before the idea of a noise complaint at a hotel, or someone bothering some woman at a bar. The management doesn't go stand outside the room with a decibel meter to make sure that the people are actually being loud. He simply calls up to the room and tells them to please be more quiet.

In GM4Powergamer's examples above, particularly the one about staring at the girl, what was the end result? He was a bit embarrassed. That's it. What if he actually had been staring at the woman? Would it matter? Not really. Being embarrassed for five minutes is a small price to pay to make women feel safe in public. Now, obviously, the player's response was entirely out of line, of course. But, at the end of the day, the only effect here is a bit of red face for @GM4Powergamers.

See, this idea that "we need to nail down definitions" is a rabbit hole that you can never dig your way out of. There's no way to construct a code of conduct for public behaviour that will cover all possible issues without being very vague and broad, which means that sometimes innocent behaviour will get caught up too. But, it's a poor excuse for not doing anything.

 

[LordEntrails]

See, this idea that "we need to nail down definitions" is a rabbit hole that you can never dig your way out of. There's no way to construct a code of conduct for public behaviour that will cover all possible issues without being very vague and broad, which means that sometimes innocent behaviour will get caught up too. But, it's a poor excuse for not doing anything.

As a potentially interesting point, about a dozen years ago I had to go through a corporate harassment training class (in Colorado, USA). The "instructor" was a corporate lawyer who supposedly specialized in harassment, though it seemed she probably just got licensed. Anyway, after about 90 minutes of "training" us, the audience started asking pointed questions. By the end of the 2 hour class, she agreed that their was no definitive legal definition of harassment, and that in the end it would depend upon what the the two sides in the case could convince the jury of. And that emotion was key to convincing the jury.

Maybe their is now a better legal definition, but I doubt it.

 

[MechaPilot]

As a potentially interesting point, about a dozen years ago I had to go through a corporate harassment training class (in Colorado, USA). The "instructor" was a corporate lawyer who supposedly specialized in harassment, though it seemed she probably just got licensed. Anyway, after about 90 minutes of "training" us, the audience started asking pointed questions. By the end of the 2 hour class, she agreed that their was no definitive legal definition of harassment, and that in the end it would depend upon what the the two sides in the case could convince the jury of. And that emotion was key to convincing the jury.

Maybe their is now a better legal definition, but I doubt it.

There are several things in law that don't have a specific definition, but rather are left to a "facts and circumstances" test. It makes things less clear, but my understanding is that such tests are intended to retain the spirit of the laws they apply to, and not to overly limit the laws in question because one single element of a definition was not present while most of the others were.

 

[Springheel]

No, it really doesn't need qualifiers. .

I notice you completely ignored this:

If the word "harasment" is supposed to have any agreed-upon meaning at all, then yes you do. Otherwise, I can claim that your posts are harassment, and no one can disagree because that would simply be more harassment.
Do you accept that you are harassing me?

So, are you?

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

Harassment is about creating a hostile environment. That very much can be done by people who think they are acting appropriately, as in the example I gave.

I'm not going to address your hypotheticals because they both involve 1) misunderstandings that can easily be explained, and/or 2) topics that probably should be avoided in public places that allow children to enter. "Puss" is a term for female anatomy on its own these days: have you never heard the phrase to "crush puss?" There are just some words, like "puss" and "niggardly" that reasonable people should understand have a decent chance of being misinterpreted as being vulgar or racist, especially if a person catches only part of what was said.

However, the threat against you in your real life example was harassment, possibly criminal harassment (most likely assault, or some other crime more specifically defined as making verbal threats to another's person).

wait... so since I'm a woman no one can tell me about a shrek Christmas special because Puss in boots is in it? I think this is getting extreme...

I don't care who looks at me, and I'm not worried about a juvenile joke, but threats and down right insults or lewd suggestions all have to go... and for gods sake keep your hands off me.

how did we swing so far the other way were now I have to not be allowed to be in the store to talk about a kids cartoon????

 

[MechaPilot]

wait... so since I'm a woman no one can tell me about a shrek Christmas special because Puss in boots is in it?

That's not even remotely close to what I said.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

That's not even remotely close to what I said.

it is exactly what you said... I quoted it...

There are 2 things that make me feel unwelcome at cons and stores (well 3 but one has nothing to do with this)

1) men going super vile and touching or threatening or shameing
2) people trying so hard to rubber wall the room so dainty little me doesn't get hurt that everyone trips over themselves.

Harassment is about creating a hostile environment. That very much can be done by people who think they are acting appropriately, as in the example I gave.

"Puss" is a term for female anatomy on its own these days: have you never heard the phrase to "crush puss?" There are just some words, like "puss" and "niggardly" that reasonable people should understand have a decent chance of being misinterpreted as being vulgar or racist, especially if a person catches only part of what was said.[/QUOTE]

put those two together for a moment...maybe you didn't mean to say it, but look at what you said... it is almost worse your way then his

 

[MechaPilot]

it is exactly what you said...

Not at all. Please read. I have a cold and virtually no patience to explain the obvious fact that you should be aware of what you say, and who you're saying it to/around, and that something you've innocently said can be misconstrued by a stranger who doesn't catch your entire conversation. That is absolutely not the same thing as your friend who knows you and how you will react not being able to tell you about the Shrek Xmas special and you should most certainly know that and not need to have me explain it to you!