Converting original D&D and Mystara monsters

[Cleon]

Yeah, I like that pretty well. Making Cha odd and Con even is fine, too.

I think we might as well keep the Sin-Eating Affliction Table for the sake of legacy and clarity.

Okay, so we've got something along these lines:

Whenever an ovinaur completes a sin-eating ceremony it gains corruption points equal to the HD or level of the evil creature whose sins it absorbed. These corruption points are cumulative.

Each time the ovinaur eats sins, it must compare its current corruption total to its own Hit Dice on the Sin Ratio Table and roll the indicated affliction dice. The ovinaur receives an affliction penalty from that sin-eating equal to half the affliction dice result rounded up. If the affliction dice result is an odd number the penalty applies to Charisma, if it is an even number the penalty applies to Constitution. The affliction penalty can also be determined by looking up the affliction dice roll result on the Sin-Eating Affliction Table.

Affliction penalties are not cumulative but Con and Cha penalties are counted separately. For example, an ovinaur with a –3 Cha affliction penalty that rolls a –2 Cha penalty stays at a –3 Cha penalty, but if it rolled a –2 Con penalty it would now have both –3 Cha and –2 Con penalties.

Sin Ratio Table
Sin Ratio* .Affliction Dice . Purification DC
up to 0.25 . . . .1d3 . . . . . . DC XX
up to 0.5 . . . . 1d4+1 . . . . . DC XX
up to 0.75 . . . .1d6+1 . . . . . DC XX
up to 1.0 . . . . 1d6+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 1.5 . . . . 1d8+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 2.0 . . . .1d10+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 2.5 . . . .1d12+3 . . . . . DC XX
up to 3.0 . . . . 2d6+4 . . . . . DC XX
up to 4.0 . . . . 2d6+6 . . . . . DC XX
more than 4.0 . . 2d6+8 . . . . . DC XX

Hmm… I'm thinking maybe we can tweak the Affliction dice a bit so they all give uniformly odd & even results:

Sin Ratio Table
Sin Ratio* .Affliction Dice . Purification DC
up to 0.25 . . . .1d2 . . . . . . DC XX
up to 0.5 . . . . 1d4 . . . . . . DC XX
up to 0.75 . . . .1d6 . . . . . . DC XX
up to 1.0 . . . . 1d6+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 1.5 . . . . 1d8+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 2.0 . . . .1d10+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 2.5 . . . .1d12+2 . . . . . DC XX
up to 3.0 . . . .1d12+4 . . . . . DC XX
up to 4.0 . . . .1d12+6 . . . . . DC XX
more than 4.0 . .1d12+8 . . . . . DC XX

If nothing else, the above give a bit more love to the neglected dodecahedron.

I think we still need to set the Purification DC for the Wis check at the end of the ritual. What about starting at DC 11 on the top line and increasing by 1 per line to DC 20 at the end?

We'd agreed earlier on base of 10 and +2 per line, which would have put it up to DC 28 at the end.

That does seem a bit high. Contrariwise DC 20 seems slightly too easy - that's a 10% chance of success for an average Wis 12 Ovinaur at maxxed-out corruption, and such a creature is likely to be loading up on bonuses to give itself better odds.

How about we aim for particular start- and end-DCs and back-figure the DCs from there? I'm leaning towards starting about 8-10 and ending at 22-24. Here are some possibilities:

Sin . . . . . . . Affliction . . Purification
Ratio . . . . . . Dice . Range . DC#1 DC#2 DC#3
up to 0.25 . . . .1d3 . . 1-3 . . 10 . 10 .. 8
up to 0.5 . . . . 1d4+1 . 2-5 . . 12 . 12 . 10
up to 0.75 . . . .1d6+1 . 2-7 . . 14 . 14 . 12
up to 1.0 . . . . 1d6+2 . 3-8 . . 16 . 16 . 14
up to 1.5 . . . . 1d8+2 . 3-10. . 17 . 17 . 15
up to 2.0 . . . .1d10+2 . 3-12. . 18 . 18 . 16
up to 2.5 . . . .1d12+3 . 4-15. . 19 . 19 . 17
up to 3.0 . . . . 2d6+4 . 6-16. . 20 . 20 . 18
up to 4.0 . . . . 2d6+6 . 8-18. . 21 . 22 . 20
more than 4.0 . . 2d6+8 .10-20. . 22 . 24 . 22

I'm leaning towards #1 or #2.

And that just leaves the undeath part. I still have a slight preference toward corporeal only, but it's not a big deal. I do think sticking to template undead might make the table work a bit better, in that then the strength of the undead is influenced both by the ovinaur's HD and the sin ratio.

I'd prefer to include a wide range of undead since the original text set no limitations to what deathless horror a sin-eaten ovinaur can return as.

If we're using template-only and stick to the SRD that gives us very few undead to pick from. Four to be precise: Ghost, Vampire, Skeleton & Zombie - and one of those is incorporeal!

Going strictly by the rules it can't be a Ghost or Vampire, because those templates don't work on Outsiders - that'd only leave us Skeleton & Zombie! Since we want to include intelligent undead we'll need to add a note that Sin-Eating Undead are a special case.

 

[freyar]

Ok, that's quite a long post! I think I like your second suggested affliction dice progression, actually, with the d12s.

As for the purification DCs, I lean toward the second progression.

Finally, on the undeath, you make a good point about the lack of available templates in the SRD. Maybe we need to decide if the ovinaur's HD plays any role at all. Then we could include non-templated undead and just tie the undead's power to the sin ratio. :/ Alternately, I don't mind using templated undead from the CC. I assume the table is just a suggestion to DMs anyway.

 

[Cleon]

Ok, that's quite a long post! I think I like your second suggested affliction dice progression, actually, with the d12s.

As for the purification DCs, I lean toward the second progression.

That's convenient, since those are two options I can support too!

So shall I update the Ovinaur Working Draft with:

Whenever an ovinaur completes a sin-eating ceremony it gains corruption points equal to the HD or level of the evil creature whose sins it absorbed. These corruption points are cumulative.

Each time the ovinaur eats sins, it must compare its current corruption total to its own Hit Dice on the Sin Ratio Table and roll the indicated affliction dice. The ovinaur receives an affliction penalty from that sin-eating equal to half the affliction dice result rounded up. If the affliction dice result is an odd number the penalty applies to Charisma, if it is an even number the penalty applies to Constitution. The affliction penalty can also be determined by looking up the affliction dice roll result on the Sin-Eating Affliction Table.

Affliction penalties are not cumulative but Con and Cha penalties are counted separately. For example, an ovinaur with a –3 Cha affliction penalty that rolls a –2 Cha penalty stays at a –3 Cha penalty, but if it rolled a –2 Con penalty it would now have both –3 Cha and –2 Con penalties.

Sin Ratio Table
Sin Ratio* .Affliction Dice . Purification DC
up to 0.25 . . . .1d2 . . . . . . DC 10
up to 0.5 . . . . 1d4 . . . . . . DC 12
up to 0.75 . . . .1d6 . . . . . . DC 14
up to 1.0 . . . . 1d6+2 . . . . . DC 16
up to 1.5 . . . . 1d8+2 . . . . . DC 17
up to 2.0 . . . .1d10+2 . . . . . DC 18
up to 2.5 . . . .1d12+2 . . . . . DC 19
up to 3.0 . . . .1d12+4 . . . . . DC 20
up to 4.0 . . . .1d12+6 . . . . . DC 22
more than 4.0 . .1d12+8 . . . . . DC 24

* * *

Sin-Eating Affliction Table
Affliction Roll . Affliction Penalty
1 . . . . . . . . . . . -1 Cha
2 . . . . . . . . . . . -1 Con
3 . . . . . . . . . . . -2 Cha
4 . . . . . . . . . . . -2 Con
5 . . . . . . . . . . . -3 Cha
6 . . . . . . . . . . . -3 Con
7 . . . . . . . . . . . -4 Cha
8 . . . . . . . . . . . -4 Con
9 . . . . . . . . . . . -5 Cha
10 . . . . . . . . . . . -5 Con
11 . . . . . . . . . . . -6 Cha
12 . . . . . . . . . . . -6 Con
13 . . . . . . . . . . . -7 Cha
14 . . . . . . . . . . . -7 Con
15 . . . . . . . . . . . -8 Cha
16 . . . . . . . . . . . -8 Con
17 . . . . . . . . . . . -9 Cha
18 . . . . . . . . . . . -9 Con
19 . . . . . .. . . . . -10 Cha
20 . . . . . .. . . . . -10 Con

Finally, on the undeath, you make a good point about the lack of available templates in the SRD. Maybe we need to decide if the ovinaur's HD plays any role at all. Then we could include non-templated undead and just tie the undead's power to the sin ratio. :/ Alternately, I don't mind using templated undead from the CC. I assume the table is just a suggestion to DMs anyway.

I guess we could have it based on Challenge Rating or something, but if we do that how do we fit in low-CR undead like Zombies and Skeletons? I suppose an ovinaur with mild sins could produce an underpowered undead…

I have no objection to including undead from the Creature Catalog, but think we should include an SRD alternative for them.

 

[freyar]

OK, please update. I would just change "Affliction penalties are not cumulative" to "Affliction penalties do not stack" just because that sounds more like 3.X.

On the undead issue, I'm starting to think we should just tell the DM to use judgement with the idea that more powerful ovinaurs and higher sin ratios should correspond to more powerful undead. It's just too unwieldy otherwise. We can certainly suggest some examples, though.

 

[Cleon]

OK, please update. I would just change "Affliction penalties are not cumulative" to "Affliction penalties do not stack" just because that sounds more like 3.X.

Fine by me.

Updating the Ovinaur Working Draft.

On the undead issue, I'm starting to think we should just tell the DM to use judgement with the idea that more powerful ovinaurs and higher sin ratios should correspond to more powerful undead. It's just too unwieldy otherwise. We can certainly suggest some examples, though.

I'd rather have something a little more definite, if only a list of suggested undead.

 

[Cleon]

Updating the Ovinaur Working Draft.

Hold on a bit, there are a few red bits to sort out before we can finish the pre-undead portion of the ability.

First, there's this:

The maximum number of bonus empowerment points the ovinaur can amass from sin-eating equals the HD of the deceased it has sin-eaten or 5 times [?] the ovinaur's HD, whichever it highest.

I think we'd better add a multiplier to the "HD of the deceased" bit, otherwise a 4 HD goatling would have to eat the sins of a 20 HD creature to max out their empowerment capacity. How about:

The maximum number of bonus empowerment points the ovinaur can amass from sin-eating equals three times the HD of the most powerful creature it has sin-eaten or 5 times the ovinaur's HD, whichever it highest.

Secondly, there's the:

The ovinaur can attempt to cancel the lunar purification ceremony at any time with a DC 5 [?] Wisdom check.

Do we remove the red ? or modify the number?

Thinking it over, it might be better to remove the Wisdom check entirely and make it:

The ovinaur can cancel the lunar purification ceremony at any time.

 

[freyar]

Can you remind me when we decided to grant empowerment points from sin-eating? I'm not finding it in the original document (though I admit I could very easily be missing it). But in answer to your question, I think I'd get rid of the "HD of the deceased" and just make the limit 5x the ovinaur's HD. That way, that paragraph becomes "Sin-eating grants the ovinaur a number of bonus empowerment points equal to the Hit Dice or level the deceased had when it died. The maximum number of bonus empowerment points the ovinaur can amass from sin-eating equals 5 times the ovinaur's HD." And it's the same limit as from discerping, so it seems reasonable.

I'd be ok with dropping the Wis check for cancelling the purification ritual if you prefer, but I think I like DC 5 slightly better.

 

[Cleon]

Can you remind me when we decided to grant empowerment points from sin-eating? I'm not finding it in the original document (though I admit I could very easily be missing it). But in answer to your question, I think I'd get rid of the "HD of the deceased" and just make the limit 5x the ovinaur's HD. That way, that paragraph becomes "Sin-eating grants the ovinaur a number of bonus empowerment points equal to the Hit Dice or level the deceased had when it died. The maximum number of bonus empowerment points the ovinaur can amass from sin-eating equals 5 times the ovinaur's HD." And it's the same limit as from discerping, so it seems reasonable.

Oh that was ages ago, but basically the original Ovinaur basically didn't gain any benefit from sin-eating (well, apart from a bit of bread and a draught of ale) so it hardly seemed worth the risk so we had a protracted debate about what benefit to add for the Ovinaur so it might actually countenance using the ability.

I'd be ok with dropping the Wis check for cancelling the purification ritual if you prefer, but I think I like DC 5 slightly better.

I'm OK with both those proposals.

Updating the Ovinaur Working Draft.

 

[freyar]

I figured we'd discussed it, but these critters stretch out so long...

This looks good, but we should remove the "whichever is highest" from the end of the restriction on empowerment points from sin-eating.

There's also now something funny with the table of SLAs. It seems like it's html code instead of vbulletin code now.

 

[Cleon]

I figured we'd discussed it, but these critters stretch out so long...

This looks good, but we should remove the "whichever is highest" from the end of the restriction on empowerment points from sin-eating.

Fixed!

There's also now something funny with the table of SLAs. It seems like it's html code instead of vbulletin code now.

Ever since the reboot after the Great Database Hiccup the tables keep on getting buggered up when you edit a post. They can be fixed by adding a width statement in the TABLE tag, but sometimes I forget to put one in when I edit the post.