D&D 5E Why Good Players Should Not Play Champions

[Ashkelon]

Players in groups I'm in try improvised actions all the time. Those actions are usually covered by acrobatics and athletics. As such remarkable athlete would rarely apply.

The Dex based fighter who want to hide in combat have training in stealth. They usually have 2 levels rogue MC as well so they can actually hide in combat without usinggn their Action. Again remarkable athlete wouldn't apply.

 

[happyhermit]

If there was a feat that gave you the Remarkable Athlete feature, do you think it would be a good feat?

It wouldn't be OP, can't see it getting much use, of course I see a feat that granted a guidance never being taken.

If champions had the choice between learning the guidance cantrip or gaining the remarkable athlete feat, which feature do you think would be better overall?

100% RA for me.

The passive nature of Remarkable Athlete seems nice, but the majority of skill checks you would make with it are not checks that would be done in a situation where spending an action to cast guidance ahead of time is out of the question. Most stealth and sleight of hand checks can be done under the benefit of the guidance cantrip.

If you use guidance on a stealth check, then anything you want to DO won't have that bonus.

With RA you get bonus on the stealth, then bonus on breaking down the door, then bonus on initiative, then bonus on whatever. Either bonus from prof. or from RA.

Remarkable athlete only applies to very few skill checks overall. The skills remarkable athlete applies to are Athletics, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. Athletics will most likely be trained, so gains no bonus from remarkable athlete. This leaves remarkable athlete applying to a few rolls that will rarely come up over the course of a typical gaming session. As I said, it is anything but remarkable.

It also applies to con checks, situations that require a straight ability check (ie; web), skill checks with alternate ability scores.

 

[happyhermit]

Players in groups I'm in try improvised actions all the time. Those actions are usually covered by acrobatics and athletics. As such remarkable athlete would rarely apply.

The Dex based fighter who want to hide in combat have training in stealth. They usually have 2 levels rogue MC as well so they can actually hide in combat without usinggn their Action. Again remarkable athlete wouldn't apply.

So, you agree that how useful it is depends entirely on the particular table in question?

Or are we playing the game wrong if we play without the optional feats and multiclassing? What if we use skills other than acrobatics and athletics in combat, etc. What if we use the rules for skill checks with different abilities?

 

[Valetudo]

Nope, the point is the feature gives you very little benefit if a cantrip can provide all the same benefits and then a whole lot more. Anyone can take magic initiate feat to get guidance, another cantrip, and a first level spell. Remarkable athlete is therefor less than 1/3 as good as a feat. The champion fighter would be be better if they received the guidance cantrip as opposed to RA.



You really don't need the stuff remarkable athlete applies to in combat. A +2 or +3 bonus to a few Dex skills. You definitely won't be using stealth in combat as a fighter. Nor will you be using sleight of hand. Maybe you will use acrobatics in combat? Remarkable Athlete is overwhelmingly used outside of combat. And outside of combat, the drawbacks of guidance disappear.



Your comparison clearly shows a lack of understanding of the issue. You compare like features to determine if one is good or not. The comparison with remarkable athlete to guidance is to show that a champion fighter would be better off if they had the ability to cast the guidance cantrip than they are with remarkable athlete. It's sad that the champions most useful feature could be entirely replaced by a single cantrip.

Note, I'm not saying remarkable athlete isn't a half decent feature, it's just not some wellspring of amazing utility only available to champion fighters. Anyone who says remarkable athlete is amazing is plain kidding themselves at the value of its overall utility.

your whole arguement is poitless because 1. RA stacks with guidance and 2. Your comparing two different classes. If you want to compare, use the other fighter subclass 7th lvl features.

 

[AaronOfBarbaria]

Those actions are usually covered by acrobatics and athletics. As such remarkable athlete would rarely apply.

You say a thing that is true, but then you claim something which that truth doesn't actually support.

Players could, like I have for example, have a little bit of foresight when putting their Champion character together and use their relatively high Strength and/or Dexterity modifier alone, then later supplemented by the Remarkable Athlete feature, to get reasonably good chances of success at these improvised actions, and intelligently place their very limited skill proficiency choices in other things (I used mine for perception, intimidation, survival, and insight if I recall correctly - not hunting down my character sheet right now).

The Dex based fighter who want to hide in combat have training in stealth.

Mine doesn't. Now what?

They usually have 2 levels rogue MC as well so they can actually hide in combat without usinggn their Action.

That's just nonsense, really. You can't just decide that the majority of the playerbase multiclass, let alone specifically multiclass rogue for 2 levels literally every time they want their character to have non-abysmal chances of success at stealth in (or out of) combat.

 

[Satyrn]

That's just nonsense, really. You can't just decide that the majority of the playerbase multiclass, let alone specifically multiclass rogue for 2 levels literally every time they want their character to have non-abysmal chances of success at stealth in (or out of) combat.

Now hold on, there.

I'm always tempted to multiclass into rogue for the sneak attack, no matter what character I'm playing. Now that the gnome battlemaster* I'm playing is proficient in Stealth, I guess I'm rather required to dip into rogue for 2 levels.


*If y'all had to drink a shot every time I mentioned my gnome battlemaster, you'd be wasted.

 

[Valetudo]

I have not had one player multiclass in my games yet. I have nothing against mcing and allow it. People just play different ways. My players become part of the world and tend to make their choices based on that. Some people just care about dpr and make their choices only on that.

 

[Plaguescarred]

All the champion fighters i've seen in games or playtest pull their weight just fine and think they're more effective than they appear on paper. Now it's true that the champion is simpler to build and run than other fighter subclasses so it might not be for everyone, but i would not say good players shouldn't play one some people have great deal of fun playing champion so to each is own.



Yan
D&D Playtester

 

[Charles Rampant]

You say a thing that is true, but then you claim something which that truth doesn't actually support.

Players could, like I have for example, have a little bit of foresight when putting their Champion character together and use their relatively high Strength and/or Dexterity modifier alone, then later supplemented by the Remarkable Athlete feature, to get reasonably good chances of success at these improvised actions, and intelligently place their very limited skill proficiency choices in other things (I used mine for perception, intimidation, survival, and insight if I recall correctly - not hunting down my character sheet right now).

This is what I did as well. I ended up with a Half Orc Champion who was formerly part of the Waterdhavian Watch, and who was sufficiently well rounded to interact with all the pillars of the game, being trained in Insight, Perception, Survival, Intimidation and Persuasion. It means that, at level 8, my Athletics was +7 (rather than +8) and my Persuasion was +4, not +1. Remarkable Athlete is a great feature, when you allow it to be.

 

[Corwin]

This is what I did as well. I ended up with a Half Orc Champion who was formerly part of the Waterdhavian Watch, and who was sufficiently well rounded to interact with all the pillars of the game, being trained in Insight, Perception, Survival, Intimidation and Persuasion. It means that, at level 8, my Athletics was +7 (rather than +8) and my Persuasion was +4, not +1. Remarkable Athlete is a great feature, when you allow it to be.

Yup. Thanks to BA a strong PC doesn't even need to be trained in Athletics to be decent at athletic tasks. Nor a dexterous PC need be trained in Stealth to be passable at sneaking around. Training certainly helps in these things. But not necessarily required. Often, I've found in 5e, it is more advantageous to shore up a skill you have a low/no bonus than to double up on a skill linked to your highest ability score.