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lowkey13
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D&D 5E What happened to the punk aesthetic in D&D?
Sacrosanct
Legend
I largely agree. In fact, Skip Williams said that 2e's inclusion of THAC0 was intentional (as opposed to moving to ascending AC which they did think of), so people with all their old material could still play it in the new system. So even though a new edition was released, they made it with the intention of being backwards compatible.
As someone whose favorite edition is AD&D and I've played it from 1981 to 2012 when 5e playtest came out, I've mix and matched all kinds of things. My 1e games were played in B/X adventures and I used 2e thief skill progressions, bard class, and specialty priests. And most monsters I used were 2e versions.
So no, I have no problems with DIY or mix matching, and it's hard for me to grasp my head around those who don't want anything near their table that isn't that version officially published material. I'm not saying it's bad, just that I don't understand it because it's counter to the entire D&D culture I grew up with and what the game itself was built around.
As someone whose favorite edition is AD&D and I've played it from 1981 to 2012 when 5e playtest came out, I've mix and matched all kinds of things. My 1e games were played in B/X adventures and I used 2e thief skill progressions, bard class, and specialty priests. And most monsters I used were 2e versions.
So no, I have no problems with DIY or mix matching, and it's hard for me to grasp my head around those who don't want anything near their table that isn't that version officially published material. I'm not saying it's bad, just that I don't understand it because it's counter to the entire D&D culture I grew up with and what the game itself was built around.
TwoSix
Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
With such a rancid post, I guess it's inevitable we'll clash.
I can't offer history, merely anecdote. When I learned to play, in the early 90s under 2e, player focused do it yourself material was simply not something you did. You used the PHB stuff, or the myriad of player focused material released in the early 90s, or (if you were daring) maybe you and your DM tried building a class using the 2e DMG "class builder". Honestly, 2e threw so much stuff at us that coming up with our stuff would have seemed sort of pointless.
I do think there's some generational factors at work. Those of us who learned to play in the 90s are kind of a mini-generation that missed the boom of the 80s, and are more influenced by the myriad settings of 2e and the mindshare that White Wolf also took up in that time period. (If you weren't playing D&D, you were probably playing Vampire.) Maybe we're the boy-band generation or something.
I can't offer history, merely anecdote. When I learned to play, in the early 90s under 2e, player focused do it yourself material was simply not something you did. You used the PHB stuff, or the myriad of player focused material released in the early 90s, or (if you were daring) maybe you and your DM tried building a class using the 2e DMG "class builder". Honestly, 2e threw so much stuff at us that coming up with our stuff would have seemed sort of pointless.
I do think there's some generational factors at work. Those of us who learned to play in the 90s are kind of a mini-generation that missed the boom of the 80s, and are more influenced by the myriad settings of 2e and the mindshare that White Wolf also took up in that time period. (If you weren't playing D&D, you were probably playing Vampire.) Maybe we're the boy-band generation or something.
Gradine
The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Time. Time is the game-killer.
There's a lot of issues, and the list you came up with covers many but is certainly not all-inclusive, but I imagine for many folks it boils down to time. And that's part of what you've labelled Convenience but it is bigger than that.
The internet and the DM's Guild and open gaming should have made that "punk" aesthetic easier, and in some ways it does. In other ways, it doesn't. At all. See, when there's one official version of the <class name excised> that's the version the vast majority of tables use, even if there's grumbling over some features or the lack of Inspiring Word or whatever. But when you have to shop on DM's Guild or forums or reddit and there's five dozen different versions of <excised>, like the <excised> or the Princess or the <excised>, that becomes paralyzing. Which ones are even good, let alone reflect your own vision of the <excised>? There's no quality control there. You have to do it yourself. Which takes time and energy.
Yes, you could hack your own, but then that goes back to time. Designing a class is time-consuming. It's exhausting. And unlike some previous editions, there aren't even any guidelines on how to go about it.
There are other considerations, like AL play, but for home games, if I had to guess, the biggest consideration is time.
I did a lot more home-brewing when I worked at a Hotel. And before I had my kid.
There's a lot of issues, and the list you came up with covers many but is certainly not all-inclusive, but I imagine for many folks it boils down to time. And that's part of what you've labelled Convenience but it is bigger than that.
The internet and the DM's Guild and open gaming should have made that "punk" aesthetic easier, and in some ways it does. In other ways, it doesn't. At all. See, when there's one official version of the <class name excised> that's the version the vast majority of tables use, even if there's grumbling over some features or the lack of Inspiring Word or whatever. But when you have to shop on DM's Guild or forums or reddit and there's five dozen different versions of <excised>, like the <excised> or the Princess or the <excised>, that becomes paralyzing. Which ones are even good, let alone reflect your own vision of the <excised>? There's no quality control there. You have to do it yourself. Which takes time and energy.
Yes, you could hack your own, but then that goes back to time. Designing a class is time-consuming. It's exhausting. And unlike some previous editions, there aren't even any guidelines on how to go about it.
There are other considerations, like AL play, but for home games, if I had to guess, the biggest consideration is time.
I did a lot more home-brewing when I worked at a Hotel. And before I had my kid.
Simple - the Internet. People can now easily discuss the game system and mechanics with more than their own group of friends.
Much like evolution of species, isolated pockets of gamers means highly individualized and idiosyncratic variations on the game can evolve because they aren't competing with all the other possible game variations out there.
Now that you can easily compare and contrast with other gamers from all over the world, there is pressure to have a basic set of rules (and a similar understanding of those rules) that we can all agree on, and then work on our own variations from there. Hence all the discussion and debate over seemingly minor differences in interpretation, followed by "Well, that's just your house rule, the core rule is xxx". Evolution in action.
It's also a matter of bragging rights. You can't get people to understand just how badass your character is if they are using a version of the rules where what your character does is either commonplace or impossible.
Those of us who are older don't have the time for it, or are making money from it. The younger people never knew it or are making money from it.
It's still plenty alive with other games, but D&D has this "officialness" thing attached to it these days.
Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app
It's still plenty alive with other games, but D&D has this "officialness" thing attached to it these days.
Sent from my iPhone using EN World mobile app
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lowkey13
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lowkey13
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Satyrn
First Post
I'm confused.
This reads to me as you asking "Where is this something that I'm pointing right at it?"
Well, going with my "evolution" theme - there is one big thing that applies pressure towards standardization in D&D that other games don't have (as much). Centrally controlled Organized Play systems. D&D has two - Pathfinder by Paizo and Adventure League by WOTC. They have a standard set of rules (and rulings) that everyone who participates has to adhere to. For a lot of people, it's much easier to just use those in their home games as well.
I come up with a lot of house rules for my home game, but I have to keep my house rules clearly delineated from the Core rules in my mind or I can get into trouble playing my characters in Adventure League.
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