D&D 5E What happened to the punk aesthetic in D&D?

[Ilbranteloth]

(I'm generally a Fripp/Gilmour/Gabriel/Belew kinda guy, but hey, if it's in a weird time signature and has at least one 15-minute track on it, it's probably okay by me.)

Nostalgia's a powerful thing, both for the music and the games that imprinted on us early. My suspicion is that there probably was something magical going on - for whatever genre or time you recall - that's being magnified to one degree or another by nostalgia and memory. A great deal of my middle age seems to be about sorting through what was valuable and figuring out what might be better to discard.

In any case, thank you for bringing this stuff up, which has added lots to think about to this discussion!

I think that nostalgia is part of it for a lot of people. Both in gaming and music. But there's also that gut reaction thing when something really speaks to you. D&D and King Crimson, Yes, and Floyd all have. It's also a very individual thing. I think I have a natural tempo of 5 or 7, because music in those time signatures tends to have a noticeable impact on me.But it doesn't have to be. Kiss is a nostalgia/punk sort of simplicity gut reaction for me. Ace is no guitar hero, and there's certainly nothing in an odd time signature. But they were the first band I got into as a kid and it makes me want to pick up my guitar. ELO was next and Yes was the first concert. But every time I hear Gates of Delirium, I'm also drawn into D&D mode because I can picture myself in the basement painting minis, or preparing for a game session.

There's no doubt that nostalgia drives part of what I'm looking for now in my D&D game. Not so much the nostalgia of remembering specific past things, but the emotional draw, the thing that says, "I really want to play D&D." I'd almost say it's not so much a nostalgia thing as a comfort thing - certain music and D&D are part of who I am in a sense. And a big part of that in D&D is making the game my own, changing the rules to fit what works for our campaign, rather than accepting what somebody else has come up with as "official" or "authentic." It's really only "authentic" if it feels that way to you.

And really, thinking about the campaign, rules, etc. isn't always an intentional thing. They are the sort of things that pop into my head whenever. It's just part of how my brain works now. And I totally get that this isn't the way most players of D&D feel about the game. It's just a game. Which it is. But we all have things in our lives that are just more than that simple thing. Something we're passionate about. D&D (and music) are two of those things. And I have the kids and am working back into having more time for D&D after a long stretch of not having so much time as most of us go through. And after the initial rush (who rock, of course) of playing again (and even better, teaching my daughter with Keep on the Borderlands), I naturally fall right back into tweaking the rules again. So it's really part of the game as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

(This is not personally directed at anybody)
Actually there is a high strong emotional component. But this is not because I need the big corporation to hug me; I have no problem with WotC. The problem is with the community at large. There is a strong judgemental current in mainstream D&D right now.

Unfortunately this is true (and hopefully I'm not one of them). Although it's not new, and certainly par for the course for the internet.

Why not kitbash

...must be a modeler

and homebrew? I don't know maybe because I don't want to be labeled a munchkin? I don't want to be judged? I don't want to feel like what I want is wrong?

I find this attitude is everywhere. Any deviation from dogma is quickly splashed and punished. There is too much fear of doing things wrong and of wanting the wrong things. There is also too much pressure to blindly accept all of the trappings of the edition, yet "do D&D your own way". (In other words if you are not owning D&D, you are doing it wrong, but at the same time if your way is not my way, something is wrong with you)

Stop munchkin shaming and labeling as entitled brats any and all dissent, and you will find people will be more open to do their own stuff -just remember it will be their own stuff-. On the other hand keep up with the munchkin stigma and more and more DMs an players will cling into the orthodoxy of official.

I'm guilty of having this feeling. It isn't I want a personal apology or anything, but feeling acknowledged and included would be nice given that so far all of my preferences are fringe at best. Official stuff and designer input has an effect on what the players at large see as bad and wrong. Being normalized in an environment where munchkin shaming is rampant would be so so nice.

I think I could get something perfectly good for what I want and need given enough time. But it wouldn't do me any good. You see whatever I homebrew becomes a nice thing in my DM toolbox, a new option that can help my players express the characters they want to express. Yet, I cannot get any DM to even consider allowing my homebrew into their games (just how do you do that? I don't even know how would I start that conversation on a way that didn't sound as if I'm looking for an unfair advantage)

I will say that I haven't really ever known anybody personally (as in face-to-face) that had even remotely the interest in the rules, tweaking them, and such as me. At best I have people that put up with me thoughts, and they do actually provide quite a bit of input. But it's just not their thing.

On the other hand, there are a lot of folks online, such as here at Enworld, that do share that passion. Most of them are very supportive, although that doesn't mean they always agree with me. There are a handful that I would say are a bit more...aggressive in their defense of their ideas or approach. Sometimes that might be me, although I try hard not to be that person. Whenever you've developed something creatively, and especially when you post it in public, it's natural to sometimes be a bit defensive and protective about it. And that can come off the wrong way. Usually I find that there are others who will jump in and defend a given position (although a few times I've felt that I'm in a very small minority).

What I think is more important is finding a group of players that appreciate your approach. I toss ideas and stuff out to share with others. It really doesn't matter if others agree if it works for our group. And there are certainly rules and ideas that we thought were great that we change or drop if it doesn't pan out in the long run.

And this isn't unique to RPGs/D&D, the same problem exists in my other hobbies. Really anything that somebody is passionate about. And a lot of those hobbies are enjoyed by folks that aren't necessarily the most skilled at people skills, in person or online. Don't let that discourage you, there are a lot of us here who are happy to help.

As far as getting another DM to consider a home-brew idea? That's tough because it really depends on a lot of factors related to the DM and the table. Certainly starting with ideas that benefit the game or table as a whole, rather than just your specific character might help. Perhaps starting a thread to vet through some of the ideas (or if you're wary of that, PMing people who you think would be receptive to get some input that way)?

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I think most people who have played for more than a week (okay, maybe a bit longer) use some form of house rules. Some of those are just based on not understanding the rules, or how they interpret vague rules. Others might be one or two minor tweaks.

However... there is a big difference to me between that and a heavily house-ruled game, or a game that makes use of a lot of third-party content.

I don't think making your own adventures even counts as homebrewing materials. That's assumed practice. Playing only published adventures is kind of a "variant option" in and of itself.

Playing with your own world vs a published world is about a 50/50. I'd say both are equally standard official options.

Then you have creating your own monsters, magic items, and spells. That's moving just a bit into true home-brewing mode.

Casual house rules, that seek to "fix" bits of the game you'd like different are in the same category.

Beyond that you get to full on home-brewing, where you are making up classes, feats, and extensive rules-rewrites, or using those made by others. At that point I think, "Why play D&D?"

I just think it is useful to see where one falls on that spectrum, and perhaps identify it in discussions, because we can be talking about vastly different things when one person is thinking, "using group initiative and I writing their own adventures," and another person is thinking, "changed all the classes and uses most of the material on DM's Guild."

Monsters, magic items, and spells I think are as much a standard part of D&D as writing your own adventures/world.

Why play D&D? Because as a whole the rules work really well, and even though I have rewritten the bard, fighter, and to a lesser degree the sorcerer, with tweaks or archetypes for other classes (although some we don't use right now), and have added a lot to the combat, adventuring, exploration, and other rules, it's still very much and very obviously D&D. The mechanics we use remain consistent, and the majority of the rules additions I make utilize the existing mechanics or expand upon them.

It's still very much D&D, and while it does require bringing players up to speed, it doesn't require learning a new game.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I feel slightly disoriented and altogether old. Could someone please give me a definition of "munchkin" in this context?

It took me a moment, but I believe it is because he is talking about tweaking character rules as a player. Which would have a high probability of being seen as munchkinizing.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[innerdude]

I can't help but feel as though a DM who lacks the imagination to even incorporate professional 3rd party content (for example, classes published here through En5ider) is unlikely to be running an engaging or entertaining campaign, because whatever he's doing is just paint-by-numbers unless he's willing to take ownership and control of the game.

This. So much this. Show me a GM who isn't at least willing to look outward to any and all sources (including the players!) and take ideas that will improve his/her game---whether it be homebrew rules, classes, items, spells, combat maneuvers, adventure hooks, NPC ideas, and world building---and I'll show you a GM who is likely running an insipid, uninspiring, GM-forced campaign that's designed to serve his/her interests and no one else's.