D&D 5E What happened to the punk aesthetic in D&D?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I could not disagree more with the premise of your post. Sure, now that there is AL, there is something useful in differentiating AL v. everything else, but to try to differentiate "everything else" as "more D&D" and "Why are you even playing D&D" seems like you are trying to enforce your normative judgment as to what proper changes are.

The second paragraph you quoted was focused primarily around getting on the same page in discussion. While you may not see any meaningful difference in degrees, for purposes of communication I definitely do.

Why is using a 3PP class any different than using an UA class? Why is that any different than tweaking a PHB class and renaming it for your home campaign?

If you want AL (or home version of AL), that's easy enough. But artificially drawing homebrew lines and labeling something as more or less D&D seems exceptionally unhelpful.

Why is a Taco Bell taco any less authentic than one from a taco stand in southern California or Mexico? It's the same issue of authenticity. I don't really have a strong preference between styles of tacos, but I will readily admit that Taco Bell is the less authentic option. Maybe you don't care about D&D IP authenticity, just like I don't care about a lot of food authenticity. That shouldn't mean that we can't understand those who do, and recognize that there truly is such a thing as more or less authentic.

As far as "why play D&D at all", I'm a strong proponent of not limiting oneself to one RPG. There are so many games out there that do just about everything better than D&D does, with the single exception of being authentic D&D! Why play D&D if you're more concerned about something else than what D&D is actually useful for.*


*I've actually heard some understanable arguments, such as not having available people who you can get to play non-D&D RPGs. In that obnoxiously unfortunate case, yeah, you might just have to make do. I'm just the kind of person that wouldn't accept that status quo and would go out of my way to find people to play other RPGs with, rather than let them dictate my gaming. (You probably wouldn't expect to hear that kind of sentiment from the guy whose post you were commenting on. There is a lot of complexity in these issues.)

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Ugh. Authenticity is a fool's errand.

Well here is the root of our contention. I'm not sure what meaningful discussion can happen if we disagree about the reality of objective authenticity.

And that's it, innit Let us assume that we are looking for the holy grail of authenticity in D&D ... then wouldn't we be playing with highly modified rule sets and house rules (the punk aesthethic) because that is the ur-D&D? Isn't playing AL-style, by-the-book, the antithesis of "authentic" D&D.

If you're playing by the book, aren't you playing it inauthentically? Or, to put it in the terms of your original post I was responding to, if you're not homebrewing and modifying, then why bother playing D&D?

Well personally I define D&D authenticity as official IP produced through official channels, preferably that with a strong tradition. Some homebrewing (settings/adventures) is almost a mandatory part of that authenticity, while other parts of it are optional, and at the extremes it reaches the part I was originally addressing, where it loses touch with the official game and becomes your own game "inspired by" D&D IP, which doesn't seem any more authentic than a bad book to movie adaptation to me.

I mean at some point you've just got to admit that a position based on taste and values can still have an objective element (we don't need to have an academic initiative to determine that Taco Bell's tacos are less authentic than...just about anything else), and good-naturedly laugh at those who care or don't care about those elements. There are plenty of things I do inauthentically, and think others are silly for others to care about, and then there are those for which authenticity is important to me. What determines which are which? Probably whichever version of the particular thing I like the most. Since I like authentic IP-based D&D, I'm going to seek to help it flourish. Since I like the way American pizza has developed, I'd think it's silly for people to champion "New York style pizza only!"

 

[Ilbranteloth]

So, I've read numerous threads where people have argued that something isn't acceptable unless it is an official, WoTC product. And this very much goes against the grain of how I learned to play and run D&D. While I sometimes call it a DIY thing, I really think of it as more of a punk aesthetic.*

So, a bit of grognard history.** D&D (OD&D) was originally a confusing mismatch of rules and supplements that required a fair amount of work and houserules just to, well, get it to work. It was the definition of a "hobby." With the advent of BECMI (Holmes first) and AD&D a lot of this was systematized ... and yet, it was still a punk hobby.***

Why? Well, there was a lot of mixing and matching between rule sets. BECMI and AD&D were largely compatible, and many tables used rules and books from them interchangeably. Sure, some people ran B2 as their first Basic module, but others ran B2 as their first AD&D module. And the rules themselves had internal inconsistencies (monks attack as thieves, no, as clerics) as well as the knowledge that many tables applied rules inconsistently (elves and resurrection, to hit v. AC, saving throws for worn objects, etc.). It was common to see people glom on to 3PP products for additional information and classes (The Complete Alchemist, the various "NPC-only" classes in Dragon magazine) and alter or amend things at their own table.

Now, the pendulum began to swing, certainly by the 3e era. And I can understand why people are more comfortable with branded material. But in essence, this is a hobbyist's game still. It is about creation, not just consumption. Or, to put it in the punk parlance, about being given the basic tools to create your own band, not about listening to ELO.****

So, I can understand and sympathize with the desire to have WoTC release products. Roughly, this can be boiled down to the following factors-
1. Convenience. I'd rather have someone else create it than me. (But this shouldn't apply to the wealth of material on the DM's Guild or, more importantly, that is freely available on the intertubez).
2. Brand. WoTC has a brand, and an interest in protecting same. As such, their products will be a higher quality in order to protect it. I will pay a premium for that assumed protection.
3. Consistency. I would like my product to be the same as that used by others.
4. Emotional support. I enjoyed X from the past; since WoTC is not "officially" supporting X, they are not supporting something I liked, and therefore, they do not like me. WHY DON'T YOU LIKE ME?
5. Moar Product. I just want WoTC to release more stuff, because I love 5e; it just happens that I want them to release more of what I want.

I am sympathetic to all of these claims (even (4)). But what I guess I don't understand is what happened to hobbyist/DIY/punk aesthetic that animated D&D? It's not missing; look at the threads and you can see people recounting their own, highly modified, campaigns. And I'm not arguing that "back in the old days," everyone did it right and customized the heck out the system. Naw; it wasn't born out of desire, but out of necessity; many "table rules," were often because of convenience or not reading all the cross-references and asides that Gygax buried, and the adoption of additional materials was because, TBH, you had to.

But still ... I like 5e because it is so highly adaptable. What do you think?

*I am the antichrist. I am an anarchist. Don't know what I want, but I know how to get it.

**Five ways, uphill, in the snow, just so that we could complain about how the cartoon wasn't "real" D&D.

***By punk, I mean DIY nerd. But definitely punk. We did it our way.

****Don't let me down, commenters.

One of the reasons I love 5e is because it is so adaptable and feels a lot like AD&D to me because of that. And I think WotC is supporting that approach with DMsGuild. We've tweaked the rules a lot for our campaign, although that's not unusual for me, as I've done the same with each prior edition. But the 5e mechanics make it very simple, and flexible.

In my opinion, what I think you see missing is that the 5e releases target a different audience. At least that's my take on it. The core books, of course, are made for anybody who plays the game. But folks like me don't necessarily need the other releases, although I have all of them and have found things of value in all of them.

I think that the main releases, the APs, target a more casual audience looking for a self-contained game. All you really need are the Basic Rules and an AP, although obviously shoes that play a lot will pick up the PHB at least, and the MM and DMG. But an AP lets you create a new group of characters, run them to 15th level or so, and then you can start a new group of PCs with the next AP. It plays well to the "video game" crowd, the MtG crowd, and really what is probably a majority of D&Ders that like the idea of gaining a level every 1-3 sessions, with new abilities, etc.

Do ya think we'd let you down, or are we really in the twilight of D&D? Perhaps that's the way life's meant to be, but I don't think so. It's such a livin' thing that there will always be those that tweak and modify the game. I think the main difference is that the published material is (rightfully) focused on the mass market and making it easy to get into the game, and forums like these and DMsGuild provide the outlet for the folks like us that will continue what we do, even if D&D wasn't published at all anymore.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Something can be diminished, yet still there.

I might say that while I can still find a Zoot Suit, they aren't as common as in they used to be.

Actually, perhaps it is not diminished at all. In the past, the typical gamers you'd meet and talk to were the, well, gamers. Whether it be at conventions, or even at a gaming store, or whatever, it wasn't the casual gamers that you typically ended up chatting about games with.

In the early days of the internet, like many other hobbies, the groups online were also the ones that were really into the hobby. I think it's more a question of the more casual gamer having a voice that wasn't as obvious in the past. Also, the D&D base is still more splintered, with OD&D, AD&D, 3/3.5e plus Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e enthusiasts, all finding their own preferred places on the internet.

I think that the amount of material available at DMsGuild along with the Unearthed Arcana Reddit, En5sider, and other places show that not only is home-brew material still popular, but that 5e is a popular rules system for home-brew. Sure, a lot of that material may have existed before, but it's becoming easier to find as it's more easily found in places like those.

I will also say that I think another thing that has probably had an impact on home-brew are digital tools. Some are better than others about allowing modifications and such, but since many of them are designed around the system itself, and with systems like 3/3.5e/Pathfinder/4e all having a significant number of conditions and modifiers to track, those types of tools are popular, but also might cause the game to trend toward the published rules.

But I think part of what we're seeing is that the gamers that stick to the official rules have a larger visible presence than in the past, largely because of the internet.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

If we're talking ELO then you should be more worried about us "bringing you down" as in "Don't bring me down... shwoop" surely?

Yes, I think he was confusing them with The Beatles, although sometimes that's a pretty easy thing to do...

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Dude. You have to go for 100,000.

So close, and yet you can't say, "I have written six figures worth of words. SIX FIGURES!!!!!"

Then you just kind of stare for a long time, like an H. P. Lovecraft protagonist that finally realized, "Hey, this can't be explained by science."

My 5e home-brew PHB is already over 80,000...That's not including the stuff for DMs (like monsters, magic items, and of course campaign notes...)

 

[Ilbranteloth]

A few years ago I was reading books on the history of punk and put some thought along these same lines. I might try and stick some quotes in here, but the three books I found the most relevant to D&D were Fu*** Up + Photocopied: instant art of the punk rock movement by Bryan Turcotte, Retromania by Simon Reynolds and Please Kill Me by Legs McNeill.
The general idea was that music had become this large and complex orchestrated event with bands like Led Zeppelin, Bowie and Yes. But boil it down (or distill) to its core and what you really want is young people, noise, and energy. The window dressing, fireworks, and seats aren't necessary, just mainline me the emotion, straight into my gut, you can punch it into me, but don't sugarcoat it into me with fake Disney happiness. A punch is f**ing real.
Another thing is available technology-for example punk music was killed by the drum machine, because the drum machine allowed people to capture noise and energy with even less effort than a 3-piece punk band's guitar and drum set.

This isn't a well organized set of thoughts, I might try and get back with more later if time allows.

Except that after a while, the simplicity and aggressiveness grows old. Sometimes it works, and works really well. But Zeppelin, Bowie, Yes, and others work on multiple levels and just speak to me soooo much more. Sure, sometimes it went too far, but that was often the result of other non-musical influences and circumstances. Then again, the original punk was simpler still - a guy and a guitar, like Robert Johnson. Immediate and raw.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

When I read "ProgBard" the first thing I thought of was Rick Wakeman!

I'm just putting forth some ideas here. It's a thought I've had in the past as well and is it nostalgia or was something really different going on?

Or Ian Anderson.