D&D 5E Why do so many DMs use the wrong rules for invisibility?

[The Crimson Binome]

You have :
Disadvantage 6 (can't see target, in pain, tangled in net, prone, scared, exhausted)
Advantage 1 (target can't see you)
For a net Disadvantage.

Your target, attacking you back, has:
Disadvantage 1 (they can't see you)
Advantage 2 (you can't see them, you are prone)
For a net Advantage.

That's one way to put it, sure. And the way that the rules work, any instance of advantage counters any instance of disadvantage. Both you and your target have both advantage and disadvantage, so everything cancels out and you both roll normally, just like if you were facing each other on an open field in the middle of the day and you weren't half-dead from poison and exhaustion.

 

[cooperjer]

In one encounter I ran the warlock cast Darkness in an area and the cleric cast Silence in the same area. I assumed the NPCs were disoriented and not sure what to do next other than get out of the area and find an area where they can hear and see. Prior to them getting a turn to move, because they were surprised, the PCs moved to a spot next to the NPCs and attacked them. Would you say the PCs are attacking hidden creatures? The NPCs could not see or hear the PCs so they could not hear the attack or coordinate a response. However; once they NPCs moved on their turn, were they now hidden, assuming the Darkness and Silence spells were active?

I would also like to toss the spell Pass Without Trace out as additional evidence of what can affect if a creature is hidden or not hidden. Pass Without Trace indicates no tracks or other traces of passage occur from the creatures near the ranger. This suggest than an invisible creature would leave evidence of passage even if it were in an area affected by the Silence spell. This may allow an adventurer to find the invisible and silent creature if it didn't take the hide action.

 

[Werebat]

"So yes, you should always ask a new DM how they run hiding and invisibility, because there is no "default". And you should expect a large degree of table variation."

Indeed. And skilled players will always find a way to strongarm the DM into interpreting the invisibility rules in a way that benefit them.

Truly great players can actually force a DM to run invisibility two different ways -- one way for the players, another way for their opponents.

I once saw a table where the players were actually able to bullyrag the DM into using one interpretation of the invisibility rules for THEM, and another for their opponents, IN THE SAME COMBAT! It was a beautiful thing.

Powergaming is still a thing in 5E. It's just that it switched from being an Int-based skill to being a Cha-based one.

 

[I'm A Banana]

That it limits offsetting penalties in a strange way in some cases like making it easier to hit in places of darkness if both participants are affected by it when the advantage benefit of hitting a blinded target it canceled by the disadvantage of not being able to see creating a flat roll with all bonuses. It's a very goofy way to run the situation where it somehow becomes easier to hit if both targets can't see. That doesn't at all mirror the reality of two blind people swinging at each other.

The other weakness is the strange way it stacks and offsets. Once you have it, that's it. Just as no matter how many advantage situations you have from a special ability, prone, restrained, and the like all add up to advantage or vice versa. There have been many times when gaining advantage leaves my players bored because they have no other special abilities or situations to use.

Many times it's been like, "We got advantage. No one else needs to do anything but launch an attack." It become a bit boring when that is the limit of your tactical options.

It's worth noting that that this falls into "feature, not a bug" territory.

Trying to hunt for every possible circumstantial bonus that can stack so that you can add a lot of numbers together to make one really BIG number is, for a lot of people, not fun. It's not fun to watch. It's not fun to do. It's only kind of fun to execute on. It requires a high level of system mastery to even consider, let alone to know the subtleties of what stacks and what doesn't and what provides what bonuses.

"We've already got advantage, do something else" is the intended consequence here, because it moves the game along. "Stuff happens" instead of "making plans for stuff to eventually happen in a bigger way!"

 

[SkidAce]

There are two things at play. First, the rules are quite vague in several areas. Second, when we have vague rules it's up to the DM to interpret the rules in such a way that make sense.

For invisibility and darkness, the rules are actually quite sparse. Someone in darkness is effectively blinded.

Blinded
• A blinded creature can’t see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
• Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have disadvantage.
​

Under invisible it says

Invisible
• An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature’s location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves.
• Attack rolls against the creature have disadvantage, and the creature’s attack rolls have advantage.​

That's pretty much all I can find as written on page 105 of the basic rules.

Note that the location "can be" detected. Not "is always" detected. In addition "noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." What happens if it's not making noise or leaving tracks? A flying creature in a zone of silence in the dark is going to be undetectable in most cases.

So when you state that "creatures inside a darkness spell know each other's exact locations", I disagree. The rules don't state that anywhere. If you walk into an area of darkness with an iron golem and it hasn't been activated yet, I would rule that you have no way of knowing it's there (barring other magic). It doesn't breath, it isn't moving, it is literally making no sound.

The only way to detect the golem is to stumble into it since the only way to perceive it would be to see it, which you cannot do.

If the golem activates because you enter the area and it starts moving, you can hear it and now you may know something is out there. You may even have a pretty good idea of it's location depending on the situation, but it's not automatic. The way I run it, you may not know exactly where it is until it attacks. At that point you can target it with disadvantage (because you are effectively blind).

I agree that this does leave a lot up to the DM and different DMs are going to rule it differently. That may bother rules lawyers (not saying you are one or that it's even a bad thing) but it's just part of the structure of 5E.

So yes, you have to ask your DM how they handle stealth and invisibility. I think the DM making rulings based on common sense when the rules aren't explicit is a strength of 5E, not a weakness. Feel free to disagree.

Oh, and if I'm missing a rule somewhere feel free to point it out. Wouldn't be the first time.

Best reply evar...

 

[I'm A Banana]

TWhere the line is drawn of when and how someone that is invisible (or otherwise unseen) can be detected when they have not taken the hide action is up to the DM.

Sure. But the game plays better (IMO) if the DM goes closely with what's RAW and isn't overly generous about letting invisible things drop off the face of the earth. I'd much rather know that there's an invisible flying creature 200 feet away than NOT know it and have to play the "how can I convince the DM to let me target it?" mini-game. As a player, that'd be my line, too - I'd much rather just be a (hard to hit) target than have the DM invent some reason as to why this time the creature knows where I am anyway.

 

[SkidAce]

Where'd the OP go?

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

That's one way to put it, sure. And the way that the rules work, any instance of advantage counters any instance of disadvantage.

Crikey, you're right! I've been ruling advantage wrong for the last two years without realising it.

 

[Oofta]

Sure. But the game plays better (IMO) if the DM goes closely with what's RAW ...

I'm still waiting for a copy of text from the basic rules that conclusively states you always know exactly where someone is if they are not successful at a hide check.

People keep saying "it's the rules" but unless you're talking about 4E, I just don't see it.

...and isn't overly generous about letting invisible things drop off the face of the earth. I'd much rather know that there's an invisible flying creature 200 feet away than NOT know it and have to play the "how can I convince the DM to let me target it?" mini-game. As a player, that'd be my line, too - I'd much rather just be a (hard to hit) target than have the DM invent some reason as to why this time the creature knows where I am anyway.

I agree that you can detect a creature you cannot see under many circumstances, no one is arguing differently.

I personally like to run a game that comes close to reality + magic as practical within the confines of simplification for ease of play. If it makes sense that I would know where someone is even though I can't see them then the PCs probably know where they are. If logically I would only have a general idea of direction, or not realize there's anyone out there at all the PCs will get the same result.

But to each his own. One of the biggest reasons I like 5E is that it leaves things like this up to the DM and what works for their group.

 

[Maxperson]

Being invisible does not hide your location on the map, using the hide action does. You do not get advantage to stealth checks because your are invisible, you cause sight based perception checks to auto-fail. 4 creatures inside a darkness spell know each other's exact locations, there is no guessing, you still roll with disadvantage on attacks because you cant see them, but you can always hear them. I see this easy and simple rule bastardized so hard in games that I have to start asking my DM if they are going to hombrew the stealth rule before a campaign starts.

You don't just automatically hear things. Rulings over rules and all that. An invisible bunny is not going to be making noise on the stone hallway, even if it's right next to you. The invisible knights in full armor will.