I'm sick of Kickstarters

[Parmandur]

I think you are misinterpreting what I am saying. Firstly, I had issues with Kickstarter long before I even started my project, so there should be no correlation between my success and someone else's. If anything, I am conceding to your previous points by saying that I should have done Kickstarter. I am not bitter against Kickstarter successes. I am glad for them. I simply couldn't bring myself to do it myself for ethical reasons. I felt that it was just a way to make more money from people. I understand and agree with your points about small businesses and projects needing Kickstarter, I get it. I personally won't ever back a Kickstarter, for the same reason I won't buy an Early Access video game. But you guys really think that every company running a Kickstarter doesn't have profit on their mind? You really think that Kickstarter is ONLY to cover the expenses of publishing? I don't mean to be rude, but that is naive to trust a capitalist system in such a way.

Sure, they have profit in mind: but not necessarily enough to bootstrap their next project, after payroll, printing, shipping, etc...again, these are small, small companies we are talking about here.

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[Lorrdyn]

Only if you think profit is evil. For many of us, "profit" is what puts food on the table. It's our job. We're in the business of selling roleplaying games. And we get paid to do our job.

Well, I don't feel like getting too philosophical here in a conversation about Kickstarter. But when I say Profit, I mean excessive profit at your expense. Of course I want RPG businesses to make enough to live comfortably! And of course I want them to make profit to make more products. My point has been that not every company NEEDS to do a Kickstarter campaign, but they choose to do it because they know that you will give them your money anyway, because you've bought into the idea that they can't do it without you.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, I don't feel like getting too philosophical here in a conversation about Kickstarter. But when I say Profit, I mean excessive profit at your expense. Of course I want RPG businesses to make enough to live comfortably! And of course I want them to make profit to make more products. My point has been that not every company NEEDS to do a Kickstarter campaign, but they choose to do it because they know that you will give them your money anyway, because you've bought into the idea that they can't do it without you.

But by bringing moral judgement into the conversation, you have made it very philosophical: what is appropriate for a company or individual to do in treating with potential customers? But for the life of me, I cannot conceive "if we get money, we can make this cool thing and sell it to you" can be construed as contrary to human flourishing.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure Goodman would not have been able to print the fourth run if DCC in the style they did (gold leaf, thumb tabs, built-in bookmarks, etc.) And give me eight modules for $4 without using Kickstarter: the logistics are only possible due to crowdfunding. My professional experience is in logistics, and I have to say all I've seen backs that up.

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[Lorrdyn]

But by bringing moral judgement into the conversation, you have made it very philosophical: what is appropriate for a company or individual to do in treating with potential customers? But for the life of me, I cannot conceive "if we get money, we can make this cool thing and sell it to you" can be construed as contrary to human flourishing.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure Goodman would not have been able to print the fourth run if DCC in the style they did (gold leaf, thumb tabs, built-in bookmarks, etc.) And give me eight modules for $4 without using Kickstarter: the logistics are only possible due to crowdfunding. My professional experience is in logistics, and I have to say all I've seen backs that up.

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Well, I don't think there's any more argument I could make. For me to explain morality beyond the scope of your examples, and instead what I am referring to, would require a massive word count that I don't have the energy to write. You already made the point that there are benefits to Kickstarter, and I conceded to that. But if you don't understand what is morally wrong with my examples, you might want to think twice the next time the "homeless" guy in the subway asks for your money, because chances are he makes more money than you. And if you make the argument that the difference is that Kickstarter projects provide content, the homeless guy does too. He sells you the feeling that you did something "good." Everyone needs money, of course. But if we continue down this rabbit hole, we're going to end up in a political discussion about wealth inequality, which we should definitely avoid.

 

[Parmandur]

Well, I don't think there's any more argument I could make. For me to explain morality beyond the scope of your examples, and instead what I am referring to, would require a massive word count that I don't have the energy to write. You already made the point that there are benefits to Kickstarter, and I conceded to that. But if you don't understand what is morally wrong with my examples, you might want to think twice the next time the "homeless" guy in the subway asks for your money, because chances are he makes more money than you. And if you make the argument that the difference is that Kickstarter projects provide content, the homeless guy does too. He sells you the feeling that you did something "good." Everyone needs money, of course. But if we continue down this rabbit hole, we're going to end up in a political discussion about wealth inequality, which we should definitely avoid.

Wait...giving alms to the poor is "immoral" now, too??

Oookay, hombre...

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[Lorrdyn]

Wait...giving alms to the poor is "immoral" now, too??

Oookay, hombre...

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Giving alms to the poor is moral.

The wealthy posing as the poor to receive your alms is immoral.

 

[Parmandur]

Giving alms to the poor is moral.

The wealthy posing as the poor to receive your alms is immoral.

Kickstarter is a commercial transaction (pay us X and receive Y), not alms at all. Complete non sequitur.

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[Lorrdyn]

Kickstarter is a commercial transaction (pay us X and receive Y), not alms at all. Complete non sequitur.

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I don't appreciate having my points ignored, so I will stop replying here. If you are confused by this, please re-read what I have already posted.

 

[Parmandur]

I don't appreciate having my points ignored, so I will stop replying here. If you are confused by this, please re-read what I have already posted.

But your points are unclear: why is this one form of commercial transaction "immoral," which is to say counter to proper human flourishing? In what way is it destructive and contrary to right reason? I really haven't seen any points made, as such.

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[Lorrdyn]

But your points are unclear: why is this one form of commercial transaction "immoral," which is to say counter to proper human flourishing? In what way is it destructive and contrary to right reason? I really haven't seen any points made, as such.

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I'm sorry you feel my points are unclear, but it is clear to me that you didn't comprehend them. It feels to me that either you didn't read what I said, or you disregarded what I said in order to continue with an argument. I see no point to this, and I'm starting to feel very unwelcome here. I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion, but I have seen no critical evaluation of what I said, only what seems to be anger, sarcasm, and mockery.

I will try one last time to be as clear as possible: Not every Kickstarter company needs your money in order to publish their product. Some Kickstarter campaigns are done purely out of greed. Yes, some Kickstarters use their campaign money for a good cause, like producing a quality product, or even just being able to release their product, but I am not talking about those. And any personal objection to using Kickstarter myself is because I had a misconception about the use of Kickstarter. I thought that Kickstarter was used solely for crowdfunding projects that could not otherwise see the light of day. I understand now that it also serves as a way to Advertise and provide customers with the ability to pre-order. My point is that it is very misleading, in the same way as the wealthy homeless person example I gave above is.