D&D 5E New UE Classes

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Gunslinger? Take an Archery focused Fighter, Ranger or Rogue, give them a gun, let them make ammunition with an Int check and access to the raw materials, and you're done. At best, we could get some gunslinging-archetypes for more guns & sorcery campaigns. Heck, I'd actually be kind of interested in a Hexslinger warlock or a Holy Gun paladin.

Could work, but you’re also going to either need homebrew stats for the weapon or use the examples in the DMG. Then you’re going to need to clarify which feats/class abilities apply to it. Whether or not this is too much work is a case-by-case basis, but I think it’s part of the underlying desire for new classes; the idea that all that stuff has been checked and evaluated.

Or just, you know, WoTC puts out a bunch of new gun stats in the same splatbook that they release Gunslinging archetypes for other classes, or even as just part of a general equipment upgrading book. We had books devoted solely to new stuff in... well, every edition from 2nd to 4th, I'm sure 5e will get its turn as well.

Bloodrager? It's a Sorcerer/Barbarian fusion subclass.
And would be terrible. It’s incredibly MAD, needing STR, DEX, CON, and CHA. Oh yeah, bonus points, right under the rage feature it qualifies that you can’t cast spells or even concentrate on them while raging. This multiclass doesn’t function towards the desired archetype in any way. I don’t know if this is full class worthy (I don’t think so), but it’s certainly not doable at present with the current class rules.

You seem to have misunderstood me. I'm saying that the Bloodrager of Pathfinder can, in 5e, be handled as either a Barbarian subclass that grants some Sorcerer spells (so, a Barbarian version of the Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster) and with class features allowing magic and rage to work together (auto-sustain Concentration whilst raging, or burn spell slots for magical effects whilst raging), or as a Sorcerer subclass that can Rage like a Barbarian and burn spell slots whilst raging for various magical effects/transformations, like a burning aura or spewing acid or whatever.
 

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Paul Smart

Explorer
Probably to late for this edition, but a base gish class would be good. Subclasses could be Edritch Knight, Bladesinger etc. I would also love a Warlord type class.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
To design a new base class, it should both be a concept large enough to deserve a full-class design effort, different enough so that it can't easily be represented by an existing class, and generic enough so that it shouldn't be siloed under a specific existing class.
And have a strong enough identity. It's a pretty weird bar, not so much high, as warped. ;)

The Psion could have been a Monk or Sorcerer/Wizard subclass, but it would have carried too much martial or magic baggage respectively.
Or Warlock sub-class, to go with the 'Far Realms' connection. Really, the Sorcerer and Monk have a really hard time justifying themselves under the criteria you set out, above. The Wizard & Fighter, respectively could have handled them pretty easily. (Conversely, a Monk as a sub-class of a psionic Mystic full class wouldn't be too illogical - except for the Monk, like the Barbarian, being more cultural stereotype than archetype.)

The Artificer could have been a Wizard subclass, but it would make it very strong on spells, and thus leaving much less space for actually creating stuff, which is what defines this character concept.
That's an issue homebrewers solved ages ago, about the same time we were coming up with utterly broken 'mana' systems, there were much less prevalent/more obscure systems that let a magic-user make a potion or alchemical item or whatever, and memorize & cast a spell to make it available for the day.

Under 5e spell slots, that'd've been downright intuitive. The Artificer could have learned item formulae as spells and empowered them with slots. Simple.

But the main questions the designers should ask themselves are: should every Artificer actually be a Wizard? Is there enough narrative uniqueness, mechanical difference, and gamer's interest to promote this character concept to a fully-fledged class, or will it always be a niche option that only a few players will ever play? Can it ever hold up besides classes that have been around for decades?
The last question is critical - the Artificer /did/ hold up in at least one edition, and it was iconic to Eberron. So, even though there's little justifying it, letting it slip in, if only for Eberronies, makes sense.

But Warlord?
Yes, definitely.
It handles a swath of heroic archetypes that the game has consistently failed for decades. The fighter has long been held up as a leader archetype, the 9th level Lord of the classic game, the 'natural leader who anchors the party' in 3e (cf OotS, for the gentlest mockery of how that went). And the game mechanics have always utterly failed to capture that. And, with good reason: the fighter was too busy being a badass or generic feat-based building-block (or both with enough system mastery).
The 5e fighter is back to the badass archetype and has no design space left to it for the support-style martial leader of warrior (or adventures). Not only that, but many other less overtly heroic (and, well, side-kick) archetypes could also, positively coincidentally at first, use the 4e Warlord's 'leader role' mechanics to finally /work/ in D&D. There's many support-cast roles (common language 'role') you see in genre that aren't badass fighters or cunning/lethal rogues or magic-users of any strip who none the less are important to the story and to their teamates. The 'Lazy' (as charop called them) or as [MENTION=82504]Garthanos[/MENTION] coined the term 'Princess' builds of the Warlord were a way to finally play such concepts without just being a drag on the party.
And that's just the, narrow, limited-by-formal-Roles 4e vision of the Warlord. 5e classes don't have to stick to combat-Role functions, they can be a lot more varied (just look at how much the Cleric and Druid were constrained in 4e compared to CoDzilla in 3.5 - 4e had to cut the Druid into separate Controller and Leader pieces! - vs being off the leash again in 5e). A 5e full Warlord class could potentially do more than just inspire and organize allies in a support mode, it could manipulate enemies, as well, leaning into abilities that would have been denied it in 4e as being 'controller' or 'defender' functions.
On top of that, it's iconic to 4e - and, yes, 5e must maintain the same commitment to fans of 4e as those of other past editions. That alone should have gotten it into the PH. That it was left for later, optional supplements was already a huge 'compromise' to the h4ter side of the fanbase.

The Warden seemed a trifle forced to me, personally, like the Avenger, it seemed like it's schtick was already in use, just under the rubric of a different Role. Both, in 5e, are echoed in the Paladin, but it's just an echo. A Warden might be squeezed in under Druid, though it'd step on the Moon Druids toes (claws).
But, really, the archetype of a warrior who turns into things to defend nature is a little novel. The classic Berserker who turns into a Bear is the closest thing that leaps to mind, and though the Barbarian hasn't gone there this time, it could.

Shaman? ... it would have to be done very well and with some bold design choices, so that it would be clearly different from any other spellcaster.
Shamen for divine?
The D&D take on the divine - the whole 'patron deity' thing - is pretty far removed from the animism of shamans. Though, I suppose, even if there were a shaman full class, it'd be casting many of the same spells as the Cleric, anyway. Considering how crowded the field of spellcasters already is, and how marginally the Sorcerer was differentiated, there's not really a lot of design space left to fill with a Shaman. Even so, it could be worth it. Animism is a major feature of many sources of inspiration for the fantasy genre, and has been mostly under-developed in D&D, being very different from D&D's outer-planar, patron-deity take on the divine. Animistic spirits share the world with the with the Shaman, not meddle with it from beyond. It could be another case where the 5e full-class version would have the opportunity to open up and cover more conceptual design space than it's earlier incarnations.
 
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Personally, I would like to see:
- a chronmancer
- a monster-evolve or attack-mimicer

I found the chronomancy rules here inspiring: http://www.dmsguild.com/product/194619/Immortals-Companion

Note: there is no chronomancer class in that document, and that is deliberate because "if players have unlimited access to time travel then it tends to make time travel the focus of the campaign". Time travel is instead supplied via legendary magic items and plot devices. The document focuses more on how to run time travel in your games, not on chargen options.

Under 5e spell slots, that'd've been downright intuitive. The Artificer could have learned item formulae as spells and empowered them with slots. Simple.

Brilliant! I like it.
 

hejtmane

Explorer
I love the idea of the kensai but the one they released in the previously UA was garbage it needs work and then it will be fine but in it's current form underwhelming
 

The artificer is the big one. And I like how the artificer is covering the alchemist role, filling that archetype. That and the psion/mystic should do it for classes that we really *need*.

There's lots of design space for smaller classes: shaman, shapeshifter/ skinchanger, summoner/ binder, chronomancer. But most are niche enough to be better served by 3rd Party products.

I'm really, really happy not to have dozens of classes. To have stuff like "it's a cleric, but slightly different in vague ways" like the favoured soul, archivist, and invoker.
 

The Artificer could have been a Wizard subclass, but it would make it very strong on spells, and thus leaving much less space for actually creating stuff, which is what defines this character concept. IMHO this is the main reason why they are now trying to design it as its own class, although it's not necessarily what will become their final choice.

I actually believe that it would be even better if the Artificer didn't technically have spells at all, and this could make it suitable for example to being a MacGyver-inspired Rogue's subclass.
The Artificer's roots from its previous versions, particularly its origin in Eberron mean that magic is probably going to stay a fundamental part of its makeup. The only crossover with the Rogue class is really proficiency with some tools, which are much more widely available in 5e, and the Use magic device ability of one of the Rogue's subclasses.

But the main questions the designers should ask themselves are: should every Artificer actually be a Wizard (or Rogue, or else)? Is there enough narrative uniqueness, mechanical difference, and gamer's interest to promote this character concept to a fully-fledged class, or will it always be a niche option that only a few players will ever play? Can it ever hold up besides classes that have been around for decades?
The Artificer Wizard tradition was interesting to play, fulfilled the class' role in the setting, and seemed fairly similar to the 4th ed role. However to get the feel of the full 3.5 version of the class, you would have to multiclass.

The new Artificer class is going to need more work to fit into Eberron, but it covers more of the class mechanics of the original than the Wizard tradition did.

I love the idea of the kensai but the one they released in the previously UA was garbage it needs work and then it will be fine but in it's current form underwhelming
What did you not like about it?
And what do you think a Kensai subclass should be able to do? What class should it be a subclass of?
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The Artificer's roots from its previous versions, particularly its origin in Eberron mean that magic is probably going to stay a fundamental part of its makeup.
A completely non-spell-casting option might not be too crazy, though, in theory - a sort of fantasy engineer. It would just need mechanics(npi!) to make it's presence in an adventure meaningful, rather than just the presence of its gear.

The Artificer Wizard tradition was interesting to play, fulfilled the class' role in the setting, and seemed fairly similar to the 4th ed role. However to get the feel of the full 3.5 version of the class, you would have to multiclass. The new Artificer class is going to need more work to fit into Eberron, but it covers more of the class mechanics of the original than the Wizard tradition did.
So, wait, the original class mechanics(npi!) didn't fit that well into it's own setting?

Really, though, a decidedly narrow, not very fantasy-genre concept, that it is, as a class iconic in just one of D&D's many settings, rating even consideration as a full class should be encouraging to fans of other classes that were excluded from the 5e PH, like the Warlord from the 4e PH1.

Jester Canuck said:
I like how the artificer is covering the alchemist role, filling that archetype. That and the psion/mystic should do it for classes that we really *need*.
"Need" to fill out the range of plausible casters, perhaps. (Indeed, it may be a bit over-filled as it is). There's a lot of unexplored design space for non-casters, though. Both in terms of ground already tread in a past edition PH1, the Warlord as a non-magical support-contributing class & 'battlefield control' and other not-just-DPR builds in 3.5, to similar ideas that only scratched the surface (Marshal in the 3.0-compatible D&D minis game, 'controller'-like martial exploits, & martial practices in 4e), to completely new ideas opened up by 5e's concept-first philosophy of class design.
 

A completely non-spell-casting option might not be too crazy, though, in theory - a sort of fantasy engineer. It would just need mechanics(npi!) to make it's presence in an adventure meaningful, rather than just the presence of its gear.
I'm actually thinking that a sidebar giving guidelines for non-magical flavouring of class abilities for use in different campaigns of varying magic would be useful for several classes and flavours. A quick list of which spells are suitable for reflavouring as devices or morale effects, and suchlike.
This would cover those edge cases where a concept requires doing things that are normally achieved by spells in a non-magical fashion, such as Warlords and the aforementioned Rogue(?) mundane inventor.

Generally however if you want someone to be able to use medieval tech level to create stuff that would be impressive in this day and age and/or be as good as magic, you tend to have to have them use some form of magic as well, even if that magic isn't casting spells, but more fantasy science like alchemy.

So, wait, the original class mechanics(npi!) didn't fit that well into it's own setting?
No. All the setting requires is a class able to create magical items, both permanent and temporary. Both UA Artificers can do that. Ability to wear armour and dismantle purely mechanical traps for example are class mechanics that the 3.5 artificer had but aren't required by the position of 'artificer' in the setting.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm actually thinking that a sidebar giving guidelines for non-magical flavouring of class abilities for use in different campaigns of varying magic would be useful for several classes and flavours. A quick list of which spells are suitable for reflavouring as devices or morale effects, and suchlike. This would cover those edge cases where a concept requires doing things that are normally achieved by spells in a non-magical fashion, such as Warlords
Neither an edge case nor conceptually doing things requiring magic, at all. Rather, D&D has long neglected things that can be done without magic, to provide magic exclusive 'niche protected' coverage of those same things. In genre, for instance, there may be a Priest (and he won't be called a Cleric) but it's unlikely he'll go on the adventure and frequently 'heal' the hero in the middle of a fight - the Priest might heal or even raise a fallen secondary character outside of combat. Or a mundane or even merely mystical (or freakishly pseudo-scientific, like Miracle Max in Princess Bride) healer might provide similar services. In D&D, the former contrary-to-genre in-combat-glowy-'healing' is obligatory, the latter non-combat/less-magical genre-typical healing, underpowered, in the case of not-so-magical, in the name of 'realism.'
In genre, you'll also have a hero, supporting-cast leader, or even plucky side-kick, who provides inspiration, advice, re-assurance, or even just a significant look or a need for aid, at a critical moment, and the exhausted troops rally or the battered hero comes from behind and carries the day. D&D only ever touched that trope with the Warlord, and it doesn't require magic - indeed, magic could cheapen it. It's hardly an 'edge case,' either - unlike the pious guy standing behind you making you wounds disappear every six seconds.
and the aforementioned Rogue(?) mundane inventor.
Generally however if you want someone to be able to use medieval tech level to create stuff that would be impressive in this day and age and/or be as good as magic, you tend to have to have them use some form of magic as well, even if that magic isn't casting spells, but more fantasy science like alchemy.
I didn't mean to imply non-magical artificer when I said non-casting and 'fantasy engineer.' Just one who can make fantastic devices, but not cast spells in the heat of the moment.

[quoe] No. All the setting requires is a class able to create magical items, both permanent and temporary. Both UA Artificers can do that. Ability to wear armour and dismantle purely mechanical traps for example are class mechanics that the 3.5 artificer had but aren't required by the position of 'artificer' in the setting.[/QUOTE] 'Temporary' (as in only with the Artificer there to keep them running with his 'slots,' in the above idea) would cut it, IMHO, if the campaign wasn't high-magic-item and needing an excuse for all those items anyway.
 

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