D&D 5E Out of the Abyss Advice Requested

[FitzTheRuke]

Yes, there is something wrong, the demon lords builds, agaist players with magic itens. And if you check old topics about OotA, you'll see how many tables got disappointed about the battles agaist demon lords and how they lack power to justify they CRs (like tarrasque).

I guess. Definitely, if your style is to read a statblock, look for weaknesses, and exploit accordingly. And the DM just goes along with it.



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[zaratan]

I guess. Definitely, if your style is to read a statblock, look for weaknesses, and exploit accordingly. And the DM just goes along with it.



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You miss the point, I'm talking exactly about DM's intervantion, now you too.

Look at Juiblex and check, by RAW, how great he is agains't a lvl 11 warlock with repealing blast. The only thing a good DM will see is "I can't work with that, I'll change".

 

[Valdier]

5th lvl was exaggeration. But at 7th you can get a +2 magic sword that gives desadvantage in half of enemies you'll encounter in underdark, and there is more itens and even blessing to all characters (that work like a stackable magic weapon), PCs can forget that last one for one legendary magic item (ruby spell gem).

Are you aware of the major drawbacks having that sword also includes? The concept of ever surprising anything is out the door. Stealth requires notable distances from the wielder to enact. Half of enemies in the Underdark? Exaggerate much? The blessing happens eventually... not a big deal (also not stackable). The spell gem is "meh", decent but hardly equal to many other items you could roll randomly.

Seriously, after lvl 5, the encounters start to get too easy. Random encounters are at max of 4/day, most part 2/day, but the chance that happen is 0,81% and 9% respectively. So, most of the time, party will get 1 encounter day, they can burn all resouces in that one. IIRC biggest xp in random encounter at half part is 2300xp (CR6), one player lvl 6 with full resources can handle this.

Yep, random encounters are random, you should tailor them appropriately for your party (which the book suggests directly). I think you might just run your games on easy mode.

Any city the players go last, don't have encounters to match lvl 5 to 7 players:
whorlstone tunnels hardest encounter is cultist hideout, the sum of monsters is 1950xp, should be a 3900xp ecounter by the number of enemies, a hard/deadly to 4 lvl 5, but they all will not attack together since beggining. There isn't no other hard encounter to party, unless they do whorlstone tunnels without rest.

Well, I think here, you are just running it on easy mode or theory crafting. I had cultists retreating to warn others, setting up amushes, diverting the party through the spiders, etc. They didn't get short rests in here either, because the bad guys knew they were here (and have access to minor demons). Again, the game doesn't play out like described unless you as the DM want it to.

Yestabrod in Neverlight Grove is CR 4, how desapoint this can be for 4 lvl 5?
The Feared Pudding king? another CR4, the royal oozes are another CR4 and one CR1/2, and are separated encounters. biggest xp encounter in blingdenstone? a Solo CR6 creature.

The fight with the pudding king is ridiculously hard, and if you don't clean out everything around him, just pulls tons of adds from others areas. The fight could easily TPK a party if the DM wanted to. Again, are you theory crafting or actually running it?

Second half of the adventure is even worse, 5 lvl 11 PCs will defeat a CR22+ demon lord "easily", for some demon lords you just need a warlock with repealling blast, in fact.

LOL. I would happily run Orcus or Demogorgon against a level 11 party. Graz'zt would just annihilate them, so that wouldn't be fair. Heck, make the most tweaked out 11th level party you want and the Demon lord would handily wipe them if run intelligently. Additionally, why are you running fights in big vast open caverns? NPC's are all just bags of hit points with no tactical ability at all?

Seriously, if you want to challenge PCs, DM's will need to change every encounter, change the number of encounters/day or rest recovery. DM will need to change so many things about encounters after 1/3 of the campaing that really doesn't make difference start at lvl 1 or 5.

I've run the entire module, I've changed some, but not even close to half. The random tables are the most glaring part of the module and yes, need to be changed/customized, no question... but that is your job when running this thing. Just be aware of it and run it right, don't expect paint by the numbers adventuring because that isn't this adventure.

 

[Valdier]

You miss the point, I'm talking exactly about DM's intervantion, now you too.

Look at Juiblex and check, by RAW, how great he is agains't a lvl 11 warlock with repealing blast. The only thing a good DM will see is "I can't work with that, I'll change".

Of COURSE the DM is supposed to interpret how the NPC's react and fight back. This isn't a pre-programmed video game... players could roll the dice against themselves if every monster is just an unthinking blob of hit points. If that is how you are running your games, no wonder the Demon Lords and so many encounters are so easy. I run mine based on the writeup of the monster...

Kobolds don't just run at you in waves, they use traps and are tricky. Demon Lords don't just stand in an empty cavern and swing basic attacks all day... they use their intelligence to fight on their terms.

Jubilex can climb on ceilings and poison everything within 10' of him. Why would he fight within melee reach of anyone? He has contagion and should be striking on his first hit with it against whoever he wishes to attack from the ceiling of a tunnel with a curve in it. Not allowing long range for archers and casters. He has MR, Legendary Resists, Regenerates and has a 10' reach. He could attack out of a hole in the ceiling using gaseous form to move in and out when he needs to, engaging on his terms.

Pretty much every attack against him is at disadvantage (Corrupting Touch + Foul + contagion). He can hit for up to 6 attacks in a round for 126 damage in a turn (fairly reliably). Every three turns he spits 55 acid and ruins weapons and armor + 63 more damage in physical attacks... or 42 + everyone is poisoned automatically within 10' of his target.

You are just running monsters badly. He has a 20 Intelligence, try running him like it's higher than 3.

What it comes down to... is you run/play a different style of game from many of us. I don't run or play it like a board game with dumb monsters, it sounds like that might be your preferred style, and are disappointed with it.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Well, I think here, you are just running it on easy mode...

It strikes me as "easy mode" on the DM's side and "extreme charop" on the player's side. A combination that can only add up to something "wrong" with the balance of the module.

But I don't mean to judge. I also ran the whole module. Twice, in fact. Two totally different groups with differing levels of D&D expertise.

To be fair, I've never run a "random" encounter in my life - I pick something I think will be intetesting to run into, in an interesting location. Sometimes, that's from the module's encounter tables, sometimes it isn't.

So I probably wouldn't notice if something was boring about the module - I would have skipped it so fast I don't remember it being there!

Had a great time with the overall plot, though.

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[Valdier]

It strikes me as "easy mode" on the DM's side and "extreme charop" on the player's side. A combination that can only add up to something "wrong" with the balance of the module.

Agreed here. It seems like a combination of factors that the module can do nothing to correct.

To be fair, I've never run a "random" encounter in my life - I pick something I think will be intetesting to run into, in an interesting location. Sometimes, that's from the module's encounter tables, sometimes it isn't.

I have "sorta" in that I randomized before the session, and wrote up the encounters. They were initially random, but not on the spot dice rolling to find out what they would fight next.

So I probably wouldn't notice if something was boring about the module - I would have skipped it so fast I don't remember it being there!

Had a great time with the overall plot, though.

Agreed, after a few "random"'s to set the mood and show the underdark was dangerous and constant, I moved on to 95% set piece encounters with the occasional "you run into monsters, roll initiative" style incidents.

I've loved the plot so far, it's a great storyline (we are coming up on 18? months (weekly play) of game now and about to complete it).

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

It’s a tough balance…you don’t want it to feel too easy to escape, but the rest of the module won’t happen if the PCs never escape.

Yes, I think this is an important point to note. I've read/heard from a few DMs that complain that the Velkynvelve prison is too difficult to escape and will most likely get the characters killed trying but it is really not in the best interest of the Drow prison keepers to kill the characters even if there is an uprising. They are being held prisoner for a reason. This is why the guards have ray of sickness on them to put down such potential uprisings.

 

[zaratan]

Are you aware of the major drawbacks having that sword also includes? The concept of ever surprising anything is out the door. Stealth requires notable distances from the wielder to enact. Half of enemies in the Underdark? Exaggerate much? The blessing happens eventually... not a big deal (also not stackable). The spell gem is "meh", decent but hardly equal to many other items you could roll randomly.

sun blade "you can use a bonus action to cause a blade of pure radiance to spring into existence, or make the blade disappear." the balde don't like be sent alway, but with Int 12, I bet she can understand in some situations . Blessing of protection stack with anything. Yeah, no big deal with spell gem, lvl 5 character casting a lvl 8 fireball, spirit guardians, hold person is definitly "meh", ok.

Yep, random encounters are random, you should tailor them appropriately for your party (which the book suggests directly). I think you might just run your games on easy mode.

No, I change every encounter. And that's is what I'm talking about, if I need to change all random encounters (and the number/day or rest system), those tables aren't really useful after some lvl.

Well, I think here, you are just running it on easy mode or theory crafting. I had cultists retreating to warn others, setting up amushes, diverting the party through the spiders, etc. They didn't get short rests in here either, because the bad guys knew they were here (and have access to minor demons). Again, the game doesn't play out like described unless you as the DM want it to.

Again we're talking about the same thing, you changed te dungeon because as written, would be too easy.

The fight with the pudding king is ridiculously hard, and if you don't clean out everything around him, just pulls tons of adds from others areas. The fight could easily TPK a party if the DM wanted to. Again, are you theory crafting or actually running it?

I runned it, and it was really hard, just because I did a real upgrade in him and royal court, because to me, this is a BBEG fight, not a hard encounter because I put tons of ooze to weak the players before the fight. 49hp in his form, without lucky or fudge, he can die before get a chance to act.

LOL. I would happily run Orcus or Demogorgon against a level 11 party. Graz'zt would just annihilate them, so that wouldn't be fair. Heck, make the most tweaked out 11th level party you want and the Demon lord would handily wipe them if run intelligently. Additionally, why are you running fights in big vast open caverns? NPC's are all just bags of hit points with no tactical ability at all?

So, you talking about the 3 hardest demon lords, against lvl 11 players? a 90k xp that should be 50% more than deadly to 5 lvl 20 to prove your point? I'm talking about defeat Juiblex (maybe even Zuggtmoy), those are 45k xp, deadly to 5 lvl 18 players, but 5 lvl 11 with the itens they got until here can handle with really low chance to be defeated. It's ok a demon lord be easily defeated because he moves 30ft and don't even have a legendary action movement? You really think we don't need to change nothing about that?

I've run the entire module, I've changed some, but not even close to half. The random tables are the most glaring part of the module and yes, need to be changed/customized, no question... but that is your job when running this thing. Just be aware of it and run it right, don't expect paint by the numbers adventuring because that isn't this adventure.

I'm not complaining that I need to change so many things, I'm only stating how many thing you need to change, so many that really don't care the level you'll start the advanture, this is good in fact, make you think in your adventure not just another adventure. Will only be a problem if you're a lazy DM while your players like real challenge, some really boring parts will show up.

 

[zaratan]

Of COURSE the DM is supposed to interpret how the NPC's react and fight back. This isn't a pre-programmed video game... players could roll the dice against themselves if every monster is just an unthinking blob of hit points. If that is how you are running your games, no wonder the Demon Lords and so many encounters are so easy. I run mine based on the writeup of the monster...

Kobolds don't just run at you in waves, they use traps and are tricky. Demon Lords don't just stand in an empty cavern and swing basic attacks all day... they use their intelligence to fight on their terms.

Jubilex can climb on ceilings and poison everything within 10' of him. Why would he fight within melee reach of anyone? He has contagion and should be striking on his first hit with it against whoever he wishes to attack from the ceiling of a tunnel with a curve in it. Not allowing long range for archers and casters. He has MR, Legendary Resists, Regenerates and has a 10' reach. He could attack out of a hole in the ceiling using gaseous form to move in and out when he needs to, engaging on his terms.

Pretty much every attack against him is at disadvantage (Corrupting Touch + Foul + contagion). He can hit for up to 6 attacks in a round for 126 damage in a turn (fairly reliably). Every three turns he spits 55 acid and ruins weapons and armor + 63 more damage in physical attacks... or 42 + everyone is poisoned automatically within 10' of his target.

You are just running monsters badly. He has a 20 Intelligence, try running him like it's higher than 3.

What it comes down to... is you run/play a different style of game from many of us. I don't run or play it like a board game with dumb monsters, it sounds like that might be your preferred style, and are disappointed with it.

lol, read again about Juiblex in the book, as they set the encounter, he don't have half of you state. in fact, there is a chance to fight him with imunity to poison, how easy this can be?
You fight him in his weadding, make the place a tiny hole just to avoid the range attacks looks funny to me.
Contagion take 1 action, need touch, affect just one creature and by RAI only start work after 3 failed saves.
He moves 30 feet without any form to move more unless dash, you really think this is ok to a CR23 creature? Well this isn't about DM's interpreting the stat block, is about changing that because was bad planned. any force movement and he can't reach the player, while eject slime don't recharge, his range attack do 4d6, he can do that 4x round, this is ok for a CR23?
Juiblex problem is that he dont have any resouces to reach players, what we can do? Change that.

 

[Valdier]

lol, read again about Juiblex in the book, as they set the encounter, he don't have half of you state. in fact, there is a chance to fight him with imunity to poison, how easy this can be?
You fight him in his weadding, make the place a tiny hole just to avoid the range attacks looks funny to me.
Contagion take 1 action, need touch, affect just one creature and by RAI only start work after 3 failed saves.
He moves 30 feet without any form to move more unless dash, you really think this is ok to a CR23 creature? Well this isn't about DM's interpreting the stat block, is about changing that because was bad planned. any force movement and he can't reach the player, while eject slime don't recharge, his range attack do 4d6, he can do that 4x round, this is ok for a CR23?
Juiblex problem is that he dont have any resouces to reach players, what we can do? Change that.

I have read it multiple times. You mentioned

Second half of the adventure is even worse, 5 lvl 11 PCs will defeat a CR22+ demon lord "easily"

I mentioned 3 of them... You didn't like those though because you want to move the goal posts. Your response? Zuggtmoy... the "non-combat" demon lord who is trying to take over the world by getting married. Yeah, your team of optimized PC's can defeat her (especially with bag of hit point DM'ing you seem to favor).

What it comes down to... we read the module differently and certainly run it differently. Your experience clearly isn't mine, or others who have responded in here. If your gaming style doesn't work for your group, I'm sorry. Luckily most of us don't have that issue it seems. Enjoy your game