Essentials : What to Use and What to Lose? Can of Worms

[Garthanos]

So, every PC will eventually pick one, but they do have a meaningful choice.

a choice between a handful instead of between a couple dozen other options... is significantly less choice than before.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I just don't think it is worth trying to parse out the e-era updates. You could ban the classes, but why really even bother? Truthfully its a tossup if the Mage is actually better than the Wizard (it gets some better things and some worse things, but the powers all work for both, so who cares really?).

It really isn't so much that the Mage is better than the Wizard, it's that the Mage's powers, and the errata to Wizard powers that accompanied it, are better, on top of the Wizard already having across the board superior powers as a controller.

If you don't really want to use E-Classes AT ALL, then I'd say just ditch them, but keep the new feats! The Essentials Expertise feats BTW are fine, they give you some sort of new option, PLUS the attack bonus. So, every PC will eventually pick one, but they do have a meaningful choice.

That only made them even more feat-tax-like, I'd say lose the original expertise feats, too, they were never necessary to begin with. And they're not the only offenders, all sorts of feats, tactics, and class features, some of them paragon and even epic, are casually obviated by eFeats, some with no prerequisites.

It wasn't enough to scuttle D&D - a testimony to how robust balance can be, I suppose - but it felt like a workman like attempt.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It really isn't so much that the Mage is better than the Wizard, it's that the Mage's powers, and the errata to Wizard powers that accompanied it, are better, on top of the Wizard already having across the board superior powers as a controller.

Sure, but unless you're prepared to just manually do your character sheets, you're not going to go back anyway, so why bother? And if you ARE going to grope through books to build characters, then you're either not using ANY errata at all, or you will be having a lot of fun... Vastly easier to just live with it. The difference isn't really THAT huge.

That only made them even more feat-tax-like, I'd say lose the original expertise feats, too, they were never necessary to begin with. And they're not the only offenders, all sorts of feats, tactics, and class features, some of them paragon and even epic, are casually obviated by eFeats, some with no prerequisites.

It wasn't enough to scuttle D&D - a testimony to how robust balance can be, I suppose - but it felt like a workman like attempt.

Meh, I don't agree. I mean, there's things about Essentials I don't like, but it was at worst just a bit misguided. The E-era Expertise feats though are actually LESS 'tax-like' for the very reason that they give you more, ironically. The problem with crap like Weapon Expertise was it gave you NOTHING except a bonus to-hit. There wasn't any narrative aspect to it AT ALL. So it was purely a 'tax' in the sense of depriving the player of choice in building his character.

This is not true with the newer feats, they are real choices. You will choose one, which is not a 100% perfect answer, but there are meaningful choices.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Sure, but unless you're prepared to just manually do your character sheets, you're not going to go back anyway, so why bother?

I probably wouldn't, but Garthanos seems to have the off-line builder wrapped around his little finger.

Meh, I don't agree. I mean, there's things about Essentials I don't like, but it was at worst just a bit misguided.

I know, it's just my impression.

The E-era Expertise feats though are actually LESS 'tax-like' for the very reason that they give you more, ironically.

I agree with the irony part. Take something that's a must-have because it's too powerful, and give it more power to differentiate it from similar alternatives? Yep, it's even more must-have than ever.
And, s
ince you must have Expertise, picking the expertise feat that does the best extra bennie for your build also dictates weapon choice.

The problem with crap like Weapon Expertise was it gave you NOTHING except a bonus to-hit. There wasn't any narrative aspect to it AT ALL. So it was purely a 'tax' in the sense of depriving the player of choice in building his character.

Keep the Essenitals expertise feats, without the +3 bonus, then. ;P Some of them, like Staff Expertise, would /still/ be annoying enough to ban in that form.


Edit: It occurs to me I'm maybe a wee tad bit strident about this issue. I finished Crystal Cave for a DM who couldn't stand running it back in 2011, and the players (mine and another table's as it turned out) enjoyed it so much they wanted to keep going, so I ran a continuation scenario, and another, and it became a campaign, that's still going, and the highest level PC will likely hit 23rd in the next session or two. But it's been an open-entry public event the whole time, and started with HotFw characters, and I was kinda locked into using everything. And it is occasionally frustrating when an OP feat or over-simplified class undercuts some of the game's depth. More frustrating than I realized, apparently, because I've had a lot of fun running the thing, and hadn't /felt/ the need to vent. But, clearly, I just vented. ;(

 

[Garthanos]

It really isn't so much that the Mage is better than the Wizard, it's that the Mage's powers, and the errata to Wizard powers that accompanied it, are better, on top of the Wizard already having across the board superior powers as a controller.

Ofcourse I will happily build the Warloard Martial Controller strong to match up

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I probably wouldn't, but Garthanos seems to have the off-line builder wrapped around his little finger.

Yeah, that does give you more options!

Keep the Essenitals expertise feats, without the +3 bonus, then. ;P Some of them, like Staff Expertise, would /still/ be annoying enough to ban in that form.

hehe, well, I like the staff, it seemed like a fun option, but it is pretty strong.

 

[Garthanos]

I probably wouldn't, but Garthanos seems to have the off-line builder wrapped around his little finger.

I am seeing if I can make that puppy do dances...

 

[Tony Vargas]

hehe, well, I like the staff, it seemed like a fun option, but it is pretty strong.

It is, and I don't really find it OP. You're a staff caster, you're probably able to toss close attacks anyway, but it annoys me the way it just erases the OA consideration from your tactical thinking, and that it does so just so casually - if it were Epic or even Paragon, it wouldn't be so annoying.

That's another thing, actually, I really feel like Essentials was designed to be played 1-10.

 

[Garthanos]

It is, and I don't really find it OP. You're a staff caster, you're probably able to toss close attacks anyway, but it annoys me the way it just erases the OA consideration from your tactical thinking, and that it does so just so casually - if it were Epic or even Paragon, it wouldn't be so annoying.

Yeh I think it is part of the Mage Superiority complex... and agree it could be paragon without blinking but I want OAs to be a consideration earlier on.

 

[Garthanos]

Although the Sling expertise has similar vibe...