Judgement calls vs "railroading"

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I see the point. If the player knows that the revelation his character has just been hit with was just made up in the moment, then there's a disconnect between what the character knows/perceives and what the player does. That is the kind of nonsensical concern that h4ters were whingeing about with dissociated mechanics. The very nature of a TTRPG makes it manifestly impossible for the knowledge/perception of the player (sitting at a table with fellow nerds) and the character (standing over a decapitated body with an assassin) to ever be in alignment.
However, the ideal is - or in my view unquestionably should be - to get them as closely aligned as practicality allows such that as far as possible player knowledge and character knowledge are the same. (this just keeps coming up, doesn't it?)

It's not a nonsensical concern at all, regardless of system or edition.

Yep. 'Illusionism.' Keep up the good work!
Illusionism, old boy, is where it's at! :)

Lan-"just ignore the man behind the curtain screen"-efan
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
[MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] I'm starting to question, if this goes much further, whether we'll become guilty of trying to apply science to what is in fact an art.

Kind of like what the fancystats guys are doing to hockey and baseball.

Going to chunk all of this together.

<snipped lots of chunky bits>

It isn't like hexcrawling or B/X dungeon crawling where you're mapping out a locale and spending exploration turns (listening, searching, 10 ft poling, stealthing, arcane eye-ing, etc) to avoid sequential dangers or make sequential discoveries on a granular map.
Which doesn't follow to my logical side, in that unless the travel is itself broken up (e.g. by a teleport) then any discoveries in any RPG system are by default going to be sequential, hm? At location 1 this happens, at location 2 this happens, etc. with the only question being whether the party hits those locations or (intentionally or otherwise) bypasses them.

So I hope it is clear what the players' agency is in this situation (all of (a) through (d) directly above), what the system's say is (the UaPJ mechanics), and what the GM's role is (follow the game's principles and rules, and on a 6-, follow the fiction and fill their lives with a danger of immediate and severe consequence; such as an immediate hazard event on the failed Scout roll).
While I have no objection to filling their lives with immediate and severe dangers, I prefer to do it off a pre-planned map and can't really get behind making them up on the spot, particularly when - as in your crevasse example - they put things on the map (in this case a connection between the path and the basement) that weren't intended to be there.

Looked at another way, it's almost like that system replaces wandering monsters with a much broader concept of wandering danger or just wandering damage.

That is a lot of "stuff." Let's start with/focus on this and then we can move on.
Not sure how much deeper in I'm going to dive, but OK.

Lanefan
 

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
As an aside, anyone who is interested in sandbox gaming with an emphasis on a living breathing world should really check out Sine Nomine Publishing's products. They utilize real modular design, include an elaborate set of random tables utilizing a tagging system to generate content, and use fractal design to represent things like factions. One really cool subsystem they include is the faction turn which you can use to play out different factions maneuvering against each other. It really helps to model changes happening in the setting over time. It starts out as lonely fun, but if players get to the point where they are controlling their own factions you get to include them.

Sine Nomine and Red Box Vancouver are doing some really innovative stuff within the OSR space. Stars Without Number, Godbound, Red Tide, The Nightmares Underneath, Metamorphica, and The River Knife module series are all evocative and extremely well designed.

Another cool technique is the use of countdown clocks, originally seen in Apocalypse World for fronts. The idea is that you assign a goal to an NPC, faction, or whatever and at regular intervals tick up the clock. Player actions can of course tick the clocks up or down. Blades in the Dark extends this to a method to deal with PC long term projects. Basically progress bars.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So I'm guessing that at this point, you're describing how you handle it rather than as some basic structure? Because I see a lot that I would not describe as fundamental. Not that I think any of what you describe as being wrong...just that we've moved away from some fundamental structure that most games would recognize and into the realm of preference.

He was describing the basic structure. @pemerton just seems to have the obsessive need to redefine or restate things in different words. In this case he restated the basic structure that 5e gives on page 6 of the PHB under How to Play. Change the wording back and step 1 becomes "The DM Describes The Environment", step 2 becomes "The Players Describe Their Actions", and step 3 becomes "The DM Narrates The Results".
 



hawkeyefan

Legend
As with most things the critical bits are your Agenda and Principles. Agenda describing what you are ultimately playing to do, and your principles being broad statements that inform how to pursue your Agenda. The actual procedures, or detailed bits of what exactly you do at the table, can vary, but very much shape play. Your agenda and principles form a set of best practices that help keep the game tight and guide you towards consistently good gaming. Many games can be drifted to be run in this style. I find that certain principles work pretty well for most, but not all games - stuff like Be a Fan of the Players' Characters, Play To Find Out, Treat Your NPCs Like Stolen Cars, and Ask Provocative Questions and Build on the Answers.

I have run several mainstream games, utilizing techniques I have learned from Apocalypse World and its cousins. Vampire - The Requiem 2nd Edition, Demon - The Descent, Edge of the Empire, Godbound, and RuneQuest worked pretty well. Exalted, Shadowrun, and Numenera crashed and burned.

What I have found is that you either need plentiful prestated NPCs, quick generation, or a game that is entirely player facing to make it easy to drop NPCs in. Stuff where a GM is called on to interfere with action resolution in a way that does not involve simply following the fiction does not work so well. Minimal GM overhead is preferable, particularly when it comes to things like setting DCs. It adds additional room for bias to enter the picture when ideally we should be playing to find out. It helps if the rules are clear when they apply. Games where character creation grounds them into the setting and with each other is immensely helpful. Stuff like Touchstones in Vampire, Cover Identities in Demon, Obligation in Edge of the Empire, and the entirety of RuneQuest character generation are amazing. Caveat: RuneQuest PCs leave very little room for gaps.

I would not utilize this style wholesale for GMing in FATE, Burning Wheel, D&D 4e, or Cortex Plus. Closed scene resolution generally requires a substantially different GMing skill set. FATE cuts against the grain of it because we largely know who are PCs are. It's right there in the aspects. I would only run Burning Wheel exactly as written. It deserves to be played as designed.

Again, this is all cool. I've played only a couple of the games you mentioned, but there are also many I have not. Over the years, I have played enough games to be exposed to a lot of different game mechanics that help with the game structure. I dig that stuff, even though I don't often think it is necessary.

Now, given that this is a 5E forum....do you think that 5E is incapable of achieving the kind of play you like? It's conspicuously not in your list. Do you think that absent such narrative mechanics in 5E, that DM Judgment can substitute?

Preference, but an attempt to locate it within a tenably clear framework that I think many RPGers would recognise as making sense.

I think it's important to remember what the action declaration was: I look around the room for a vessel. What the check is about is whether or not that succeeds. Narrating the presence of a vessel is simply a byproduct of narrating the success of looking around the room for one.

I understand. But I don't know if the byproduct you mention is such a simple thing. In this example, perhaps....the presence of a bowl to catch the blood and therefore fulfill the PC desire seems fairly minor in the grand scheme. So minor I would feel comfortable simply saying yes and proceeding rather than relying on a check.

But I would assume based on the focus you are giving this idea, that it can also come up in circumstances that can have a more profound impact on the game. Would you say that is true?

What I'm trying to capture is the idea that if the check succeeds, the PC's effort [an element of the fiction established at step 2] pays off, and so more stuff becomes part of the fiction. Looked at in this way, seeing a vessel or finding a mace is no different from chopping the head of an orc or picking the lock (which are also things that have happened in this campaign). The first of the former two makes it true that there is a vessel in the room seen by the PC. The first of the latter two makes it true that there is an orc with a severed head that the PC chopped off. The ingame causal grounds of the events are different in some ways, but the at-the-table process is not.

Right, I understand that. So your model fits closely enough to what most of us would acknowledge as the basic structure of the game. As I said, I don't have a problem with the approach....more with the implications you've made along the way in the discussion about other methods being more railroady.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Right, I understand that. So your model fits closely enough to what most of us would acknowledge as the basic structure of the game. As I said, I don't have a problem with the approach....more with the implications you've made along the way in the discussion about other methods being more railroady.

I think, with the bowl issue, the difference pemerton (and others?) is trying to illustrate is the difference in how the DM approaches it. So, first the player states something like, "I look for a bowl or container to catch the blood in." Then we split. [P]emerton's preference is that this is now a potential new element to the fiction -- he doesn't know if there's a bowl, but he'd like to find out. The player is asked for a check, and the success or failure of that check establishes if a bowl or container exists or does not. In this case, the existence of the bowl is an element the player is trying to establish, and the check is to see if this is the case.

On the other side, the side pemerton is calling railroading, it starts the same way with the player declaration, but instead of the check seeing if a bowl exists, the DM decides whether or not a bowl exists and how easy it is to locate the bowl. For you, the existence of the bowl is determined as 'does' and the likelihood of finding it is '100%' so you just say, 'sure, there's a bowl on the nightstand with some random coinage and a bubblegum wrapper in it.' But another DM using this method might determine there is no bowl. Another might think there is a bowl, but it's under the bed and not easily noticed, so the check is to see if you find it in time. But all of these start with the DM determining the answer to the question 'is there a bowl?' and move forward. What I gather from pemerton is that this act is the railroad (again, I strongly disagree with this use of the term) because it's a function of the DM forcing the fiction instead of allowing it to be a collaborative event. With pemerton, it's more important to acknowledge the player's contribution to the story, and the DM's job isn't to say yes or no or determine the answer, but to provide a challenge in the form of a die roll that will determine the success of the player's authoring of new fiction (in this case, a bowl; not all fiction is exciting).

That's the gist that I pick up from manbearcat, pemertion, and Campbell. While it looks superficially like the standard presentation of play (present, declare, narrate), it differs fundamentally in how the narration is authored. In the case of the bowl, pemerton's method is that the player has authored the bowl, so he's just narrating what the player established. With the other (railroady, as permerton says) method, the DM determines the fiction and only narrates the outcome of things he (the DM) is uncertain about.

I'm not sure I'm explaining that last part very well. I see it as a fundamentally different approach to the game, though, and one that fits with the presentation of other games and how they operationalize creation of the story. And, again, it's a fine playstyle, a fine theory of game, one I have no issues with (although I occasionally fail to recognize it), but I don't think the DM authoring style is a railroad, per se, it just approaches the creation of fiction differently. You can use the DM as primary author method just fine and maintain player agency in the world. It's just the domain of player agency that shifts. Railroading is the removal of player agency -- nothing they choose matters, they go the same place no matter what.
 



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