Tony Vargas
Legend
It's an understandable concern for anyone who's run afoul of the 3.x 'Diplomancer' builds, though.I haven't heard anyone complaining about social skills being too powerful. I think that's a pretty huge misunderstanding of what's being discussed.
That's a legitimate philosophical position, I suppose. Obviously, 5e, to Empower DMs, has the rules treat them very differently. Players need to follow the rules, DMs get to interpret, change, and over-rule them.The concept that bothers me about this discussion is having game mechanics that only work one way. A game mechanic should either work all the time or not be in the game. Having something that works differently for the GM as it does for players seems somehow to be "cheating" to me. I don't like "PC-only rules" and "GM-only rules".
That doesn't technically stop the DM from codifying the rules up-front and letting himself be bound by them.
Also, the rules can be different for the DM and player, but still the same for PC and NPCs... (though, again, 5e doesn't tend that way, with monster/NPC write-ups being different from PC).
They do change attitudes in different directions as well as by different mechanisms and different mechanics. But a key difference I think you're getting at is that the success/failure of Charm is based on the abilities of both the caster and the target. The caster's stat & slot level determine DC, while the target's save bonus and check determine success/failure. With intimidate, the DM might set a DC based on some judgement about the subject of the check and the situation, but there's not just some formula for it.If a player can use a game mechanic for their character to do something (in this case, influencing the behaviour of an NPC through intimidation) then the GM should be able to use the same mechanic (influence the behaviour of a PC through intimidation).
Several posters in this thread have stated that influencing the behaviour of a PC is bad, that it removes player agency. I agree with them, though I wonder what the difference is between an NPC charming a PC and an NPC intimidating a PC?
The DM can always rule an attempt fails without calling for a check.However, I think that if the GM must respect player agency then the players must respect GM agency. For example, if NPCs are not allowed to intimidate PCs then PCs should not be allowed to intimidate NPCs.
Sure, it just needs to be based a mechanical resolution system based on definable abilities of the characters involved. Part of the problem is there's no modeling of, say 'bravery' that's consistent/correlated with character types that should be exceptionally brave (like Fighters). Instead, we have CHA checks and WIS saves and the like as the closest analogues. So, if you depend on the mechanics, you get inappropriate results and the sense that agency has been violated. It's not that the result of a check (be it CHA check or WIS save) determining the attitude or emotional response or even actions of a PC is a violation of agency. If the player had the option to determine how resistant his character was to such abilities in a way that was consistent with character concept and reasonably balanced, then he'd still have agency.I want a mechanic that allows for coercion in both directions while keeping some amount of agency. Is such a game mechanic possible?