D&D 5E Persuade, Intimidate, and Deceive used vs. PCs

[jwalter]

Nice discussion! Thanks guys

 

[iserith]

Hello,

New to DMing, but a long time player. I was searching how to handle social skills and fell on this thread. Intersting read. There seems to be a iremediable conflict between to ways to play the game : ie. DM control of players vs Players have free will. Here is my take on this, as much to understand it than resume it!

After reading a lot of posts, I think I understand the 2 views. They both differ from the understanding of the concept of "role" as in "role-playing" game. The first way is to play the game as you would play the "role" of your character as an actor would play it (ie, he is not stupid, he is just roleplaying his 8 int Barbarian). The DM and dice rolling are just "stage directions" on how to play. It makes more of a theatre play or improvisation where the goal of the whole game is playing a role (in the theatre sense of the word and not in the gaming sense of the word).

The second way, the Free thinking PCs way, is different because the dice rolling is not "stage" directions" but information on the environment surrounding the PCs. The only way the PCs can interact intelligently with their environement is through information given to them by the DM. There is all kind of informations. Those that relate to the physical world like light, speed, etc. And there is also "emotional" information. Intimidation is one of them. This "emotional" information to have any use in this kind of game has to relate to something or else it is useless. Here is what I think about this and of how I intend to play with it. I like to use extremes to test things, so if a dragon, trying to intimidate a 1 lvl rogue rolls a 1 and the counter of the PCs is 20... It does not matter. The PC will never think the Dragon is all pomp and no action (lets say this is a real dragon from the Monster manuel and not a fake dragon of any kind). So... what is the use of intimidation in this exemple? None... The information is useless to the PC (ie, DM: The dragon huff and puffs, but you think you can handle it! - this is absurd). The dragon will eat the rogue in one bite and the PC know it. The opposite is also absurd (ie., the 1st level rogue trying to intimidate the dragon, rolls a 20 but the dragon rolls a 1... - the dragon will not flee and bow down to the rogue, again, the PC wishes it, but know that it will not happen). What this tells me is that there is no need to roll in this situation because the information is obvious to the rogue PC. I will never win this contest, the dragon is too much powerfull, I dont need to be intimidated, I am already intimidated if I am a 1st level rogue before a real dragon (or a soon to be dead rogue if not played very carefully...). But what about a PC facing a human guard? Or a creature that the PC no nothing about, or a creature with levels? When do you know when your opponent is tougher than you? To me, this is when this skill is usefull for PCs (note : for NPCs vs NPCs, it should only be used has an outcome has they are not real and do not have to take decisons since they are controlled by the DM and for him there is no ambiguity). The PCs though need to know if their opponent "looks" tough in relation to them (this is where the CR rating is usefull has it gives a point of comparison).

Any toughts will be appreciated,

I think it's up to the player whether his or her character is intimidated, short of some kind of magical effect or the like. The DM describes the environment. In response to that, the player describes what he or she wants to do, determining how the character thinks, acts, and talks. The DM narrates the results of the adventurer's action. Therefore, I can describe the dragon as intimidating as I want, but it's up to the player to decide how to respond. There's no need to roll dice here because the result of the dragon's attempt at intimidation is always certain - because that player describes the effect on the character, always.

As for determining whether an NPC or monster is more powerful than the character, like any other action declaration, the player needs to describe an approach to figuring that out. The DM can then determine if the result is uncertain and has a meaningful consequence of failure. If it does, then the DM calls for an ability check and narrates the result. This might be a Wisdom check to get a gut feeling about someone's abilities after observing them for a few minutes or an Intelligence check to recall lore about a given monster. But it all depends on what the player describes as an approach to the goal. If it does not have an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure, then the DM narrates the result without a roll.

 

[Sunseeker]

I'm gonna edit the final response to how I handle it.

Scenarios:

Player: "I think he's lying."
DM: "Roll Insight."
Player: "Um...4."
DM: "He rolls Deception 12. So you see no reason to doubt him."
Player: "Do you mean I can't tell if he's lying, or that I actually believe him?"
DM: "You can think he's lying all you want, you just have no reason to do so."

DM: "The guard rolls Intimidate and gets an 18. Yeah, he is pretty darn intimidating."
Player: "Oh, ok I guess I'll just keep moving then."

Player: "I don't think I want to do this quest for only 100 gold."
DM: "The magistrate rolls Persuade and gets...a natural 20!" He makes a compelling argument for taking the quest.
-a "nat 20" in a skill check is simply the highest number you can roll on a 20. It's not an automatic success.
Player: "Darn. I was hoping for more loot.. OR Well, screw him I'm going home! OR Well I came here to play D&D, so I guess I'll do his quest so we can keep the game rolling and the DM doesn't kill me for being "That Guy" who keeps rejecting the hooks."

How many people play the way that's described in those three scenarios?

I do not. The Player always has control over the way their character thinks and feels unless there is some kind of mental manipulation at work. I hope players "play along" with the dice-rolls, because it becomes really un-fun when players ignore the game in favor of whatever they've got going on in their head.

 

[c0wfunk]

I can't believe in 79 pages nobody mentioned one of the doppleganger's core actions:

"Read Thoughts. The doppelganger magically reads the surface thoughts of one creature within 60 feet of it. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt, 2 feet of stone, 2 inches of metal, or a thin sheet of lead blocks it. While the target is in range, the doppelganger can continue reading its thoughts, as long as the doppelganger's concentration isn't broken (as if concentrating on a spell). While reading the target's mind, the doppelganger has advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) checks against the target." (emphasis added)

There are two of this creature in the starter set. I have a hard time believing if the designers did not intend for the doppleganger to be able to use this feature on PCs, this would be the case. There is no mention in the starter set rules of an exception here or an intention for this action to be NPC vs NPC only. If no roll were intended (because of lack of uncertainty or whatever that argument has been) what is "advantage" doing in the description?

 

[Krachek]

Better use:
« The deal he propose seem fair ». Missed insight.
« The guards have good armor, they are well trained and ready to fight». Good intimidate check from guards.
« You will receive more than 100 golds from this quests, all the town will consider you as a hero. You will certainly have other quests later ». Good persuade check.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I was actually thinking on this thread a few days ago as I was writing how much my opinions on gaming have shifted recently. I largely disagree with the positions I took in this thread, now, and align much more closely with [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION]. It's interesting to me the difference three short years makes, and speaks to power of reading and trying to grasp different points of view with regards to gaming to actually change opinions. I don't think anyone that does make checks against players is wrong, there are many ways to play after all, I just no longer agree that such is right for me.

Please pardon this quick introspective.

 

[iserith]

I can't believe in 79 pages nobody mentioned one of the doppleganger's core actions:

"Read Thoughts. The doppelganger magically reads the surface thoughts of one creature within 60 feet of it. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt, 2 feet of stone, 2 inches of metal, or a thin sheet of lead blocks it. While the target is in range, the doppelganger can continue reading its thoughts, as long as the doppelganger's concentration isn't broken (as if concentrating on a spell). While reading the target's mind, the doppelganger has advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) checks against the target." (emphasis added)

There are two of this creature in the starter set. I have a hard time believing if the designers did not intend for the doppleganger to be able to use this feature on PCs, this would be the case. There is no mention in the starter set rules of an exception here or an intention for this action to be NPC vs NPC only. If no roll were intended (because of lack of uncertainty or whatever that argument has been) what is "advantage" doing in the description?

Charisma (Deception) might be used as a way to calculate the DC for an uncertain action to assess the doppelganger's truthfulness, its agenda, or its personal characteristics (personality trait, ideal, bond, or flaw). Charisma (Intimidation) or Charisma (Persuasion) might be used to resolve a contest between a player character and an NPC to influence some other NPC.

Since an ability check is only called for when there is an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure, and a player determines how his or her character acts and thinks and what he or she says, then there is no uncertainty when it comes to the result of a doppelganger trying to deceive, intimidate, or persuade the character: The result is whatever the players says it is and there is no ability check.

 

[billd91]

I can't believe in 79 pages nobody mentioned one of the doppleganger's core actions:

"Read Thoughts. The doppelganger magically reads the surface thoughts of one creature within 60 feet of it. The effect can penetrate barriers, but 3 feet of wood or dirt, 2 feet of stone, 2 inches of metal, or a thin sheet of lead blocks it. While the target is in range, the doppelganger can continue reading its thoughts, as long as the doppelganger's concentration isn't broken (as if concentrating on a spell). While reading the target's mind, the doppelganger has advantage on Wisdom (Insight) and Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, and Persuasion) checks against the target." (emphasis added)

There are two of this creature in the starter set. I have a hard time believing if the designers did not intend for the doppleganger to be able to use this feature on PCs, this would be the case. There is no mention in the starter set rules of an exception here or an intention for this action to be NPC vs NPC only. If no roll were intended (because of lack of uncertainty or whatever that argument has been) what is "advantage" doing in the description?

The doppelganger can certainly use the skills, the question is, as a DM, how do you implement the results.

Deception is easy - you just tell the player that, as far as they can tell, the doppelganger is being sincere, they can spot no signs of deception. It's up to the player to decide how his or her PC reacts to that. The DM has simply told them what they can and cannot tell about the doppelganger's attempt to deceive them.

Intimidate and Persuasion are harder because their resolutions aren't as obvious. For intimidate, I'd consider imposing one of the effects of the Frightened condition - disadvantage on skill/combat checks or inability to move closer - concrete effects that still give the player choices in how to control the PC but impose difficulties they may have to figure out how to work around. I'd also use any bravery ability a PC might have (like with halflings) in my adjudication of the intimidate check.

For persuasion used directly on a PC, I'd characterize the NPC's speech in particularly positive or negative ways similar to the deception check and leave it up to the player to make their decision. But if a notable effect would be suggested by the interaction and result, I'd impose it. For example, the Al-Qadim setting encouraged the practice of haggling - even had a separate skill for it. Prices were listed in 3 columns - low, medium, high - and the results of the checks determined the price the PC got when buying stuff - PC success/NPC fail = low price, both succeed/both fail = medium price, PC fail/NPC succeed = high price. If a doppelganger tried to bargain the PC up, I'd be imposing a higher cost at the completion of the deal. If the doppelganger tried to convince the PC on something in front of witnesses, the NPC witnesses would be convinced even if the player refused - and that, in turn, might create complications for the PC.

Basically, I don't hold with auto-affecting how the player and PC feel about the situation or exactly what they do - but I will declare penalties, discernible information, and impose indirect effects based on how the situation is playing out.

 

[c0wfunk]

Charisma (Deception) might be used as a way to calculate the DC for an uncertain action to assess the doppelganger's truthfulness, its agenda, or its personal characteristics (personality trait, ideal, bond, or flaw). Charisma (Intimidation) or Charisma (Persuasion) might be used to resolve a contest between a player character and an NPC to influence some other NPC.

Except in both places the creature is presented it is very clear they are working to deceive the players.

 

[iserith]

Except in both places the creature is presented it is very clear they are working to deceive the players.

First, I wouldn't use an adventure module as proof of anything about the actual rules of the game, especially modules that were written early on in the design process.

Leaving that aside, the doppelganger can try to deceive the PCs. It just tells the lies and then it's on the players to declare an action along the lines of wanting to determine the doppelganger's truthfulness (or agenda or personal characteristics). At that point, the DM can - if he or she finds the player's stated action to have an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence of failure - use the doppelganger's Charisma (Deception) check to set the DC for the PC's Wisdom (Insight) check. If the PC succeeds, then the narrated result can be that the doppelganger is not being truthful. If the PC fails, then the narrated result can be that the PC can't tell if it's being truthful or not. In either case, it's up to the player how the character responds.