D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise

[Horwath]

That isn't the spirit or the intent. You don't need to suspect a threat to notice one.



"Sucker punch" is not surprise. "Sucker punch" is winning initiative.

If you go past a nice oak tree and the tree suddenly attacks you cause its a treant arent you surprised?

Yes you are, and you saw the tree. Its 20m high.

But you didnt expect to bee attack because you didn't notice anything hostile.

Also as mentioned, if surprise isn't predetermined, that is it just entered barbarians mind, the rest of the party is also surprised and misses 1st round. Unless they beat the insight check DC

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[transtemporal]

Say the party is being escorted by neutral guards to the throne room and they do not suspect the party to be hostile, but on the way there, the impatient barbarian attacks a guard. Is that a surprise round?

No. If they guard the King, they treat everyone as a potential hostile. When the barbarian draws his axe, the guards don't go "Oh, he's probably going to shine it up so it looks good for the king!" but they probably wouldn't attack until he does.

There are other ways to gain surprise though. For example, I would let someone make a Deception check as a distraction to gain surprise, maybe with disadvantage in this instance.

 

[Matthew Barker]

Simple insight vs deception.

 

[Rya.Reisender]

I'm as strict as Hriston about it. If you noticed a threat, you can't be surprised. If you are a guard, you consider the people you are escorting as potential threat, so you already noticed the threat.

It's also not that the guards attack the Barbarian before he acts at all. This is a matter of seconds. The Barbarian draws his sword and starts swinging. Initiative determines if the guards get an attack in before the Barbarian manages to land a hit. As DM you can narrate whatever happens in a realistic way, so this shouldn't be an issue.

Surprise only happens if the stealth check of all who want to attack surpasses the passive perception of a target. In that treant example I'd actually let the treant roll stealth if he wants to surprise the PCs by pretending to be a nice oak tree. Then normal rules for surprise apply.

 

[Hriston]

So are you saying that the guards somehow automatically 'notice' a threat before the barbarian acts?

The barbarian and the other members of his or her party are not hidden, so yes, they are noticed automatically.

If so, why is that a certainty? Or did I misunderstand your comment?

The party objectively is a threat. They have been noticed. Therefore a threat has been noticed.

If you go past a nice oak tree and the tree suddenly attacks you cause its a treant arent you surprised?

Yes you are, and you saw the tree. Its 20m high.

Huge creatures, I'm fairly certain, are generally between 16 and 32 feet tall, nowhere near 20 meters. Just a quibble.

But you didnt expect to bee attack because you didn't notice anything hostile.

This is not the case. Treants have a feature called False Appearance that makes them indistinguishable from a normal tree. A normal tree isn't a threat, so normally noticing a tree isn't noticing a threat, even if the tree is really a treant. That's the purpose of the feature.

I'm assuming the party has no feature or ability to appear as trees.

 

[wedgeski]

Are the guards bad at their job? Have they been told the PC's are friendly? Is the barbarian fidgety? Is he complaining and making trouble? Did he do anything to disguise his aggression? Did he simply reach for his great-axe and start attacking?

Answers to any of these will help you with your question. Personally, if the guards were competent, and the barbarian simply announced he was attacking, I would not permit any surprise.

 

[Shiroiken]

Simple insight vs deception.

Agreed, but I'd give advantage to the guards, only because they're supposed to expect threats.

 

[S'mon]

By default everyone is surprised in round 1 except the barbarian (& other high level barbarians can act in the surprise round if they immediately Rage). However since the guards are specifically an escort I'd likely require the barb to roll deception vs the passive Insight of anyone keeping a close eye on him. If he fails they are not surprised.

 

[CydKnight]

I think I would allow it based on the outcome of a deception check versus the guards perception in the right situation. If the guards are really suspicious they would do things like disarm the party before escorting them and might have their weapons drawn. In that situation there probably won't be a surprise by the party. However if the guards have allowed them to retain their weapons, don't have their own weapons unsheathed or at the ready, then I believe a surprise is quite possible. The guards may, in that situation, simply be going through the motions and don't perceive a threat especially if the party already passed a persuasion check to get them that far.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

So a heavily armed man is granted an audience with the president. He seems nice enough. The Secret Service would be caught completely off-guard if he suddenly attacked.

Surrrrre.