Warmaster Horus
Explorer
I'd even consider the guards to have readied attack actions.
D&D 5E Non-stealth surprise
This brings up the problem with Surprise in 5e. The stated scenario is the perfect example.
Guards escorting PCs.
Barbarian PLAYER says "I want to attack the guards"
initiative
Guards roll high, Beat up the barbarian.
Barbarian turn, who has not even drawn his weapon yet.
Barbarian says "Why are you attacking me!!!"
To an outside observer a bunch of guards just beat up someone they were escorting for no reason.
Now a clever DM can play around this scenario to act more accordingly.
Guards roll high.
Guards ready action to attack anyone acts in a hostile manner (attack or reach for weapon).
Barbarian reaches for axe, and is then pummeled by a dozen guards.
However the scenario is even sillier when you get say an Assassin rogue into the mix.
Assassin has sharpshooter feat, and is hidden 600 feet away from a lone sentry.
Assassin "I attack him"
INITIATIVE
Guard rolls high.
Assassin says, eh I don't attack if I won't get my assassinate ability.
Do you continue in initiative for the next hour the assassin watches the sentry? Or does he get to attempt again after a round, 10 rounds? Keep in mind nothing has happened from the perspective of the sentry this entire time.
BACK to the point. I would say you can surprise people who are aware of you, for example in a crowded bar if you decide to deck the person beside you ordering drinks, they are surprised. However, if you are dealing with a guard, who is on duty, who is escorting you, you are not surprising him, if they didn't consider you a threat they wouldn't be escorting you. I might allow someone to get a surprise round betraying allies in that kind of situation. You are on patrol with friendly guards then stab one in the back. Although rather than a true surprise round I would probably just have normal initiative and the ones in front of you not really do anything on their turn, and you count as hidden for the one attack.
Guards escorting PCs.
Barbarian PLAYER says "I want to attack the guards"
initiative
Guards roll high, Beat up the barbarian.
Barbarian turn, who has not even drawn his weapon yet.
Barbarian says "Why are you attacking me!!!"
To an outside observer a bunch of guards just beat up someone they were escorting for no reason.
Now a clever DM can play around this scenario to act more accordingly.
Guards roll high.
Guards ready action to attack anyone acts in a hostile manner (attack or reach for weapon).
Barbarian reaches for axe, and is then pummeled by a dozen guards.
However the scenario is even sillier when you get say an Assassin rogue into the mix.
Assassin has sharpshooter feat, and is hidden 600 feet away from a lone sentry.
Assassin "I attack him"
INITIATIVE
Guard rolls high.
Assassin says, eh I don't attack if I won't get my assassinate ability.
Do you continue in initiative for the next hour the assassin watches the sentry? Or does he get to attempt again after a round, 10 rounds? Keep in mind nothing has happened from the perspective of the sentry this entire time.
BACK to the point. I would say you can surprise people who are aware of you, for example in a crowded bar if you decide to deck the person beside you ordering drinks, they are surprised. However, if you are dealing with a guard, who is on duty, who is escorting you, you are not surprising him, if they didn't consider you a threat they wouldn't be escorting you. I might allow someone to get a surprise round betraying allies in that kind of situation. You are on patrol with friendly guards then stab one in the back. Although rather than a true surprise round I would probably just have normal initiative and the ones in front of you not really do anything on their turn, and you count as hidden for the one attack.
Incorrect. The party are not "hostile" before the barbarian attacks, and therefore the guards haven't noticed a hostile.
In your assassin example, the 5e surprise rules apply because he is hidden. My question concerns scenarios where the surprise attacker is not hidden.
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Guards guard things by being on guard. In the absence of some special circumstances it'd be impossible to surprise the guards.
Also, any competent guards would have disarmed all the PCs and suspected spellcasters would have their foci and spell components taken. A Detect Magic spell would be cast and all magic items removed. If the PCs wished to keep a magic item an identify spell would be cast to ensure the item was not harmful.
Also, any competent guards would have disarmed all the PCs and suspected spellcasters would have their foci and spell components taken. A Detect Magic spell would be cast and all magic items removed. If the PCs wished to keep a magic item an identify spell would be cast to ensure the item was not harmful.
CydKnight
Explorer
Like I said, in the right situation. That example would not be one.
Please. Clearly none of that is needed because the King himself is twice the combined level of the party
It's a matter of what's happening in the scenario.
If the party is just walking about a market and attacks someone, they weren't being treated as hostile until then, so they have surprise.
If the party is raiding an enemy lair, they're going to be treated as hostile by default, and so wouldn't get surprise.
In this case, the party are being escorted to the King. They're not in front of the king at the moment, so unless the guards have some other reason to suspect them, they're not going to be treated as hostile. Now if the barbarian had tried it in the throne room...
If the party is just walking about a market and attacks someone, they weren't being treated as hostile until then, so they have surprise.
If the party is raiding an enemy lair, they're going to be treated as hostile by default, and so wouldn't get surprise.
In this case, the party are being escorted to the King. They're not in front of the king at the moment, so unless the guards have some other reason to suspect them, they're not going to be treated as hostile. Now if the barbarian had tried it in the throne room...
Ganymede81
First Post
The question you must ask yourself is as follows: "Did the guards let their guard down?"
Unless the Barbarian is trying to be discrete or the guards are distracted, I do not think drawing your weapon and stabbing someone while in plain view of everyone will result in a surprise round.
Unless the Barbarian is trying to be discrete or the guards are distracted, I do not think drawing your weapon and stabbing someone while in plain view of everyone will result in a surprise round.
Satyrn
First Post
As the scenario suggests the guards are being lax, so I might very well make them surprised, either automatically or with a successful Charisma (Deception) or Dexterity (Deception) check depending on what the player describes.
Regardless of whether they are surprised, I'd give the barbarian advantage on the initiative check for being the only one truly expecting this fight.
Regardless of whether they are surprised, I'd give the barbarian advantage on the initiative check for being the only one truly expecting this fight.
